What makes Fallout 4 crash?

[JM91]

So, little update on my trouble shooting (sorry for the double post).
My game (new save) was running stable (no crashes) for several hours. Then I enabled Sim Settlements, just the base version, no addon packs. I used the holotape to skip the first chapter (right to the kidnapping part), got a couple of settlements up and running (I used this pack for plans, since they offer basic plans for every settlements, which are very light). Then I took over the castle and used a plan by Gavdaman (which is a little more taxing) and crashes started happening. Since these crashes only happen when changing cells, it is managable, due to autosaves and I've gotten used to quicksaving often, when traversing the "outworld".
My savegames are relatively clean (Resaver shows 74 unattached instances, up from 60 when first enabling SS), but no suspended stacks.
I'll try using another plan for the Castle, but I'd be surprised, if it helps (since all plans use basically the same pool for plots). Looks like I'm stuck with this crash, I've had this exact CTD happen for years, across several different PCs and laptops (all of them strong enough to run FO4), so something in loadorder must be fucked and it looks to be Sim Settlements, or another mod I'm using causing issues with SS.
My other mods are mostly weapon mods, some armor and mostly bug fixes (I think I attached my LO in the first post)

 

[Mystical Panda]

So, little update on my trouble shooting (sorry for the double post).
My game (new save) was running stable (no crashes) for several hours. Then I enabled Sim Settlements, just the base version, no addon packs. I used the holotape to skip the first chapter (right to the kidnapping part), got a couple of settlements up and running (I used this pack for plans, since they offer basic plans for every settlements, which are very light). Then I took over the castle and used a plan by Gavdaman (which is a little more taxing) and crashes started happening. Since these crashes only happen when changing cells, it is managable, due to autosaves and I've gotten used to quicksaving often, when traversing the "outworld".
My savegames are relatively clean (Resaver shows 74 unattached instances, up from 60 when first enabling SS), but no suspended stacks.
I'll try using another plan for the Castle, but I'd be surprised, if it helps (since all plans use basically the same pool for plots). Looks like I'm stuck with this crash, I've had this exact CTD happen for years, across several different PCs and laptops (all of them strong enough to run FO4), so something in loadorder must be fucked and it looks to be Sim Settlements, or another mod I'm using causing issues with SS.
My other mods are mostly weapon mods, some armor and mostly bug fixes (I think I attached my LO in the first post)

I'm tinkering around with ordering, or at least doing some intial research and testing. I'm thinking it has something to do with LOD in conjunction with the Pre-vis/ Pre-combine system- but that's just by 'proxy'; seeing the crash seems to happen about the time these are being loaded/ calculated and rendered. Give me a bit here to see how this plays out...

 

[Mystical Panda]

so something in loadorder must be fucked and it looks to be Sim Settlements, or another mod I'm using causing issues with SS.

It's possible, and I'm kindof leaning towards how the pre-vis/ pre-combine and LOD system function and sub calls interact with each other. Back when I was trying out SS2 Chapter 2, I never got a CTD in Concord until it started to 'rebuild' itself and usually only at the final level when objects were placed everywhere. At that point, approaching it would CTD almost like clockwork(though still random). I did quite a few test playthrough with the same result. There's just something about placing objects in a 'cell' and how the engine 'organizes' the render process... somewhere... that's hitting a snag or bug. Since the base game did little of that it never really 'reared up', though I believe it's still there. Think... things falling from the sky... loading too soon and getting placed on roofs... sitting down in an invisible chair whose actual chair yards away, walking near water and seeing 'ripples' detached and yards from the player. There's seems to be 'data' and calculation issues where some type of 'data' is causing code to 'do something else' or 'skip something' that wasn't anticipated or fully tested. At least that's what I'm thinking atm.

 

[JM91]

Sounds logical. But this doesn't seem to be a common bug, since I haven't seen the forums flooded with similar bug reports. Anyways, interested to hear, what you'll find out.

 

[Mystical Panda]

Something I haven't tried yet, and that's to try and generate pre-vis and pre-combines based on my entire load order for the entire map. Though... I have a feeling it'll run for a solid week.

But this doesn't seem to be a common bug,

That's the strange part. Even those that use the base SS2 mods without anything else, irrc, still get the same type of crashes, just not as frequent. It's like the bug is there... just crops up more the more cells are 'changed'. Maybe.

 

[JM91]

Yeah. Again, makes sense, but there is a big difference between logical and Gamebryo/Creation engine. Whatever they're calling it.
On a sidenote, when I discovered in Starfield, that "player.additem 000000f" still works as the money "cheat", I had a good laugh. I think it's there since Oblivion

 

[Mystical Panda]

Yeah. Again, makes sense, but there is a big difference between logical and Gamebryo/Creation engine. Whatever they're calling it.
On a sidenote, when I discovered in Starfield, that "player.additem 000000f" still works as the money "cheat", I had a good laugh. I think it's there since Oblivion

Ok, have a week off here... so let's see what I can get accomplished- if anything. lol Just started a new game after swithcing out FGEP for FGEP Definitive. I have three settlement downs, no ctd so far. It's coming though... I know it....

 

[JM91]

Well, that's the daunting part about modding Bethesda games, seeing how much you can mod it, before it breaks
Nevertheless, happy new year and I'm honestly interested in seeing what you find out, your tool seems to be able to sniff out the culprits for crashing

 

[Mystical Panda]

tool seems to be able to sniff out the culprits for crashing

It's a work in progress... with many new things yet to be added.

happy new

You too!

 

[Mystical Panda]

Heres' a quick vid of my current playthrough... I'll post more back here in just a bit with a few things I'm trying different, what things are new and the current stability.

 

[Mystical Panda]

I added just a few mods, re-arranged some and swapped some out for their newest version. Here's the quick update- I'm slowly getting back to a 'stabile' build... hopefully.

 

[JM91]

Sorry, missed the notification. Regarding the LODgen plugins, LOOT tells me to deactive them after generating LOD, so I have them deactived anyways. But LOOT isn't the end all be all, also navmeshes seem to be iffy in settlements for me as well, wether they're closely built up or sparsely.
Regarding your few crashes, where they closer to downtown or all over the map, you mentioned Tenpines, that area should be relatively "easy" on the engine, regarding objects and NPCs.
Also, nice main menu, I got the same one I don't use reverb mods, most mods I use are for ambient and combat sounds (Bullet Impact, JSRS movement)
What mod manager are you using, integrated in your own program or MO2/Vortex?
Regarding change forms and dropped objects, that's something I avoid since Skyrim (learned my lesson on PS3). I don't drop stuff on the ground and just leave it
And how did you get LOD for green/autumn trees? I was looking for a mod, that provides new tree LODs, but I only found ones for the dead tree models

 

[Mystical Panda]

Regarding the LODgen plugins, LOOT tells me to deactive them after generating LOD, so I have them deactived

Interesting. From what I've read here, though I couldv'e missed something just skimming it, I needed those activated at the end of my load order.

Regarding your few crashes, where they closer to downtown or all over the map, you mentioned Tenpines, that area should be relatively "easy" on the engine, regarding objects and NPC

The audio crashes were random and have disappeared completely wkth the only thing I can figure is keep the 'reverb' from going max. If I were to guess, too much reverb changes the sampling rate. Though this could have something to do with improperly sampled or compressed audio files. I'll double-check to ensure that the audio crash I got before switching to FGEB - Definitite(to rule out some type of ambience, or reverbing an already reverb... reberb to speak).

What mod manager are you using, integrated in your own program or MO2/Vortex?

It's just this app. It's a universal library tool thing. It has data, load order and other types of management built in- like a front end to the various libraries. It's easy to add things like 'visual' notes using text files when scrolling over plugins and other items.

And how did you get LOD for green/autumn trees? I was looking for a mod, that provides new tree LODs, but I only found ones for the dead tree models

I'm using BNS(Boston Natural Surroundings v3.0, not the berta one) and iirc it comes with it's own LOD. Though, in time, mod others do provide PRP data. So far, the only pre-vis/combine problem I have is in Concord and I think it's due to "The Sewers" in that particular area not jiving with something else that modifies that location. Also check out Borealis... it has trees, grass and other mods to 'green' up the commonwealth; you don't have to use the ENB/Reshade presets of the same name- I don't, since my current res along with post processing(especially EM introduces alot of lag.

 

[JM91]

Ah, I'll give BNS and Borealis a look. Regarding the mod managers, I thought, that maybe using MO2 or Vortex might also make difference, but since I'm getting weird crashes with Vortex and you with a custom app, I think that is not the case.
My current run (the one with reduced mods) is crashing every 30-45 minuten, realibly on cell change, though not reproducable. The frequency of crashes gets higher, the longer I play on a particular save. Whether that is due to increased size, or maybe your theory, I don't know. File size is at 80 MB, did most vanilla quests and moved on to SS chapter 2 with the cheat holotape and I'm currently building up HQ
Edit: Great news, I just had a CTD in Sanctuary after starting a new game with no mods whatsoever, while running to the vault. So, that's new. Maybe a "vanilla" crash, or maybe the same one I keep experiencing, since I happens not only during fast travels, while moving around the over world

 

[Mystical Panda]

I thought, that maybe using MO2 or Vortex might also make difference, but since I'm getting weird crashes with Vortex and you with a custom app, I think that is not the case.

I'm thinking it has something to do with how the game is loading and using data- as from different threads. Did you ever notice how when your running beside the water that sometimes out in the water you'll see your ripple trail' even though your on dry land? Or how NPCS will set down in a non-existent chair? The chair is there, but their yards off from it. That tells me the game isn't properly calculating number, indexs, vertices or something under certain conditions. And if it's doint that... there's no telling what else it doing, or shouldn't be doing, under the hood.

There's certain things that will most definitely cause a CTD... such as bad, malformed, incomplete or improperly formatted data in meshes, textures, materials and possibly 'other' data structures. With even the CK creating problems of it's own at times.

 

[JM91]

Yeah, I noticed that. Huh, interesting

 

[Mystical Panda]

Yeah, I noticed that. Huh, interesting

Yeah, iirc, Todd was saying that one of the biggest challenges they had was 'getting all the systems to work together'. This tells me that each core design element(such as settlement building, quests progression, combat, obstacle and object navigation, hit detection- pretty much taking all the possible 'elements' of a game and breaking them down in component 'chunks') WASN'T designed, at least at the onset, to 'connect' properly(let's say data and 'workflow' wise, with the next). This allowed independent development- the separate departments to work in a non-micro-managed way to put as much(or as little) creativity in the project and they desired(if less and no expectations were layed out... then no harm no foul... and the project went forward, whether cohesive or not).

You can see these 'continuity' mis-steps not only the code can have, but also in how quests relate and tie one to another. If that makes any sense.

To me, since and if it was designed in this way would completley explain why they don't go back in an 'fix' all the problems. Sure you can PR blanket and say- "we don't like to re-visit what we've already done", but if ones stops to think about it... how many engineers design something, then if it's broken, never go back and try to fix or improve it- as it shouldn've been initially. With things like building, bridges and things that just aren't 'cost effective' and could cause more damange and harm... not re-doing it makes sense. Then on that note... if a comparementilized approach was taken, separate from each other, with all parts simply reporting in that... "their stuff just works", and not a cohesive design test taking plac(wait... didn't Todd say they spend alot of time testing to get the different systems to 'work' together?) then your going to get broken stuff.

With the testing... as a time crunch would approach... and investors(acting more like mobsters) want a solid return on EVERYTHING push a studio to 'get the product completed and out the door'... would cause more 'micro' focused bug fixing without really testing the 'fix' overall. "Hey that dude wouldn't path... but he paths now, so my parts done. Debugging complete.". Yes... but doesn't that same code, object and pathing apply to many other places? Which will never be tested? For example... I'm on a pc... so when my characters falls or steps into a 'group of meshes' where one of the axis is <0... I can't move in that direction. So, between a bunch of high rocks... I can't jump, move forward and single pixel to jump... I'm stuck- TCL is my friend. What's that they say? going into the console 'creaks' achievenents? Really>? Shouldn't that depend on WHAT was done? Without having to reload for something that wasn't tested and fixed? Let me guess... your going ot put that on me and every other loyal player of your products... hmmmm....

Ok, fun time rant over... time to get back to work before I wind up adding a novella sized post. Lol.

 

[JM91]

Yeah, iirc, Todd was saying that one of the biggest challenges they had was 'getting all the systems to work together'. This tells me that each core design element(such as settlement building, quests progression, combat, obstacle and object navigation, hit detection- pretty much taking all the possible 'elements' of a game and breaking them down in component 'chunks') WASN'T designed, at least at the onset, to 'connect' properly(let's say data and 'workflow' wise, with the next). This allowed independent development- the separate departments to work in a non-micro-managed way to put as much(or as little) creativity in the project and they desired(if less and no expectations were layed out... then no harm no foul... and the project went forward, whether cohesive or not).

You can see these 'continuity' mis-steps not only the code can have, but also in how quests relate and tie one to another. If that makes any sense.

To me, since and if it was designed in this way would completley explain why they don't go back in an 'fix' all the problems. Sure you can PR blanket and say- "we don't like to re-visit what we've already done", but if ones stops to think about it... how many engineers design something, then if it's broken, never go back and try to fix or improve it- as it shouldn've been initially. With things like building, bridges and things that just aren't 'cost effective' and could cause more damange and harm... not re-doing it makes sense. Then on that note... if a comparementilized approach was taken, separate from each other, with all parts simply reporting in that... "their stuff just works", and not a cohesive design test taking plac(wait... didn't Todd say they spend alot of time testing to get the different systems to 'work' together?) then your going to get broken stuff.

With the testing... as a time crunch would approach... and investores(asking more like mobster) want a solid return on EVERYTHING push a studio to 'get the product completed and out the door'... would cause more 'micro' focused bug fixing without really testing the 'fix' overall. "Hey that dude wouldn't path... but he paths now, so my parts done. Debugging complete.". Yes... but doesn't that same code, object and pathing apply to many other places? Which will never be tested? For example... I'm on a pc... so when my characters falls or steps into a 'group of meshes' where one of the axis is <0... I can't move in that direction. So, between a bunch of high rocks... I can't jump, move forward and single pixel to jump... I'm stuck- TCL is my friend. What's that they say? going into the console 'creaks' achievenents? Really>? Shouldn't that depend on WHAT was done? Without having to reload for something that wasn't tested and fixed?

Ok, fun time rant over... time to get back to work before I wind up adding a novella sized post. Lol.

Yeah, weird how tacking things onto an engine in use since Daggerfall may cause some incompatibilities. But, on the other side, using the Creation Engine is also what allows for great modding.
If I look at other games/engines I mod/modded (Frostbite, GTA 3D Engine, Rage Engine), they rarely offer mods as complex as Sim Settlements. So it's a curse and blessing, I'd say. Even though Starfield is ultimately underwhelming, I'm looking forward to what happens, when the CK gets released.
If you look across other games on the Nexus, most games have texture packs, maybe some HUD/menu mods, but not fully voiced and scripted questlines

Edit: I don't know much about developing games, but also from what I could gather, it is not THAT uncommon for a developer to use upgraded or improved versions of older engines. It sure as hell happens in other industries involving coding

 

[Mystical Panda]

developer to use upgraded or improved versions of older engines

No that's true. When developing something we all start out with an initial idea and initial skill(or competence) level. Then later, after everything's done, most of us 'learn' and grow moving foward to the next phase or project bringing in new ideas and level of skill. But using an unfinished 'concept', game play(or even coding) is a poor excuse to 'use' the player base as an investment opportunity to simply 'develop' a system your going to use later. This, to me, would be just fine if it fits nicely into a 'finished' product. That would make sense... we wanted to try something new and did, but the game was a blast to play. Granted- somethings are good ideas and some are bad based not only subjectively on both the developer and their 'audience' but 'sense-ically'. I love 'hainging' out in the Fallout universe... and never really invest into any particular faction, since most weren't really, at least to me, fleshed out.

As a quick quirp... What wouldv'e been nice, if at the beginning of the game(and completely skippable) the player would have vists from their neighbors(remember the ones who you encounter as ghouls later on) then before the Vault Tec employee arrives they leave. At least you know where they were other than just being a named setter you may run past in the Vault. Even if the player is a synth... those memories(even if someone elses) would still make more sense. Very quickly I'm invested by having at least a relatable idea of who they are... such as if the wife quips with the husband... or vice versa. Kindof thing.

Yeah, weird how tacking things onto an engine in use since Daggerfall may cause some incompatibilities.

True. Sometimes yes, sometimes no. Even with an unmodded games there was still broken or janked things- from textures to meshes to code.That's not to 'blame' the developer for anything 'tacked' on, but being responsible for things that are clearly in their 'camp'.

But, on the other side, using the Creation Engine is also what allows for great modding.

I completely agree, but I also temper that feeling with the fact that if it weren't for modding the success of Bethesda games wouldn't be as large. And if I stop to think about it for a moment... so does Bethesda. By moving and allowing modders to make money they've, for a minimal liability(think not costing any existing capital but selling more copies of exsing games and returning very little of that extra profit back to the those who kept it going. Then, once that door is opened... modding will ibe changed forever. Even if some still do it for free... and not concerning community expectations... but now we have another wrapped 'wet towel' to daisy whip many community members into a new 'paridigm' with the idea that the mod authors benefit(they do deserve recompense, and some even more... but more an excuse of 'we are for them, and if your not, they WE are against you'- thing). When, in actuallity, it's the investors of Bethesda... which was bought by Microsoft. Was that to improve the quailty of the product? or to add additonal monetary resources to an already massive company? To me ideas are the future... not the moment. If that was subjective only 'on me'... then why are we now trying to change and 'create' new ideas and social structures based on things that weren't that moral or popular in the past.

Even though Starfield is ultimately underwhelming, I'm looking forward to what happens, when the CK gets released.

I've honestly haven't played it enough but for me, with what little i've played... I spent too much time running around a city just for the sake of running around saying..."Wow, I ran around for an hour and still haven't seen everything... this thing is MASSIVE! omg! Wow!!!". Kindof thing. Buuuutttt... I do look forward to seeing what modders can do, but don't want to excuse developer responsibility by saying... "well they let you express and mod your game, so it is what it is. otherwise... we gave and we'll take back.".

Definitely not being negative... just kindof thinking out loud. Mostly. Lol!

 

[Mystical Panda]

I know it's out of the scope of the original post, but here's a consistent example of what I'm referring to:

The actresses facial expression seems very sincere and believable(kudos to the actress)... but notice how the characters and story are coompetely overshadowed by the brightness of the control panel, but even worse... product placement at every turn. Wouldn't this be classic Bethesda? Where the art department carries everything.. and the storytelling or writing(even directing in some instances) is completely underwhelming.

Really? So when I get strangled on a hot liquid I make sure to turn the cup and put complete focus on that? It looks more that everyone is dressed up with items from the Fallout Store or worse the Atomic Shop! It's a story... tell it. If it's well written and believable wouldn't product sells follow? I dunno... just thinking out loud again.