Martial plots too strong?

[mytigio]

I think martial plots are way underpowered. Space-wise, a 1x1 scaffold tower with just 3 machine guns produces 24 defense. Add a second level, or switch to missile turrets, and you easily get 50+ defense in a smaller area. They're also more lethal. I build 1 to 2 martial plots to "roleplay" a defensive settlement (or to see your/Altairp's cool designs ), but the cost - losing a productive settler - is too great.

If you're planning to add tier 4 defenses in future, with at least 40 defense, then they'll be worthwhile (for efficient gameplay). It's a difficult thing to balance, because the rating has next to no impact on actual defense. So another thing which could make them worthwhile is awesome armament. Say a missile turret; a gauss rifle for the guard; included siren; or included artillery. That'd add a reason to not just build, but intelligently place, martial plots.

Given the fact that you can place turrets anywhere, from a space/person perspective martial plots will always, no matter what, be underpowered vs turret spam, because it will always be more space economical to just throw turrets on top of, inside of, or around other buildings and use the space for that martial plot for something else that requires a chunk of contiguous space.

Designing systems around stat min-maxing is rarely a great plan.

 

[Lystraeus]

Yeah, you're right mytigio. But it'd be nice if martial plots weren't so far behind. I think a 4th tier or better armament is sorely needed.

 

[mytigio]

I wouldn't go so far as to say "sorely needed" personally. By kinggaths numbers you would need to take up a 2x3 space to get 150 defense when the plots reach level 3. So long as you aren't producing 200 water/food, that's plenty to meet the settlements needs.

I had that happen in a test save yesterday, there must be a bug causing it to double.

Those should only be giving 15 at level 2.

Is it due to the patch that fixed martial plots only working with dynamic needs? Maybe ended up double-dipping somehow?

 

[mytigio]

Yeah, you're right mytigio. But it'd be nice if martial plots weren't so far behind. I think a 4th tier or better armament is sorely needed.

also: the other factor on martial plots is perks.

If I have no perks, I can still build a martial plot that earns me plenty of defense at almost no resource cost (just the ASAM sensor and some basic materials). To build missile turrets I need a high level of gun-nut and quite a bit of materials.

I think gaining that extra martial efficiency is a fairly decent trade-off for having invested the materials and perks. Just my 2 cents though, I tend to look at systems as how they can enable playstyles, so my view is slanted to that goal

 

[MrJoseCuervo]

I'm not sure about the numbers game, Tinuvia would be able to answer better than I can, but the Death Tower can take out a Behemoth at level 3.

 

[Thebuttkicker]

I'm not sure about the numbers game, Tinuvia would be able to answer better than I can, but the Death Tower can take out a Behemoth at level 3.

Ignorance but what addon is the death tower in?

 

[Thebuttkicker]

I wouldn't go so far as to say "sorely needed" personally. By kinggaths numbers you would need to take up a 2x3 space to get 150 defense when the plots reach level 3. So long as you aren't producing 200 water/food, that's plenty to meet the settlements needs.



Is it due to the patch that fixed martial plots only working with dynamic needs? Maybe ended up double-dipping somehow?

1. I think ratings are fair if I am not double dipping but they should be armed better for when the fight actually happens. One settler just doesn't do enough damage to justify the amount of defense given

 

[MrJoseCuervo]

http://www.nexusmods.com/fallout4/mods/25085/?

 

[Thebuttkicker]

http://www.nexusmods.com/fallout4/mods/25085/?

Shoulda assumed it was the always free thanks! Hoping to make room for it(stupid Xbox limited modding)

 

[mytigio]

1. I think ratings are fair if I am not double dipping but they should be armed better for when the fight actually happens. One settler just doesn't do enough damage to justify the amount of defense given

at level 3 it's 2 bubble turrets and the settler, just fyi

 

[kinggath]

Anyone on PC have the issue of the defense rating being higher than 9/15/25 for their Martial plot? I'm having trouble replicating it and could use a save file to work from.

 

[Tinuvia]

I'm not sure about the numbers game, Tinuvia would be able to answer better than I can, but the Death Tower can take out a Behemoth at level 3.

Yes, the Death Tower has higher defense - 9/30/50 - set to vary slightly depending on type of turrets and dogs that spawn. I didn't lower the values when setting it as a martial plot, since it's a 2x2. I think @Brae 's defences also have higher values for their most advanced plots.

 

[kinggath]

It's looking like Thebuttkicker has a bug where the 1x1 plots are doubling their defense. I actually had it once in a test save, but I can't replicate it now to get it solved.

 

[Lystraeus]

I had that "bug" in the save I sent you, kinggath. Spectacle Isle level 2 martial with 30 defense. But I hope you don't patch it. I think double the defense rating is correct.

 

[kinggath]

Ok, pretty sure I resolved it. Turns out Martial, Recreational, and Agricultural could end up providing double bonuses under some circumstances.

 

[LaidBackNinja]

Ok, pretty sure I resolved it. Turns out Martial, Recreational, and Agricultural could end up providing double bonuses under some circumstances.

Hi Kinggath. I also have this bug. I'm sending you a save that has the bug for a martial plot (lvl1) that gives 19 def. bonus in Oberland. I'm not sure if this is a coincidence, but the flag on that plot refuses to update as well. I think the martial plot is in one of these 'dead zones' that you mentioned in the 2.02 video, but even refreshing the plot doesn't work. Does the double bonus bug have something to do with these dead zones, or is this just a weird coincidence?

 

[kinggath]

Weird coincidence. The flag's have to do with the dead zone, the defense count problem has to do with the order things are refreshed in by the code (which depends on a lot of factors).

Do the other flags in that settlement update correctly?

 

[LaidBackNinja]

Weird coincidence. The flag's have to do with the dead zone, the defense count problem has to do with the order things are refreshed in by the code (which depends on a lot of factors).

Do the other flags in that settlement update correctly?

Ah, thanks. Yeah, the other flags in that settlement do update correctly.

 

[Brae]

@kinggath Just caught up on this thread. I'm also having issues with lvl 1 martial plots doubling their defence and I've had some reports of it as a bug in my addon from Nexus users. It seems to fix at higher tiers though. For me it's happening on all plots, 1x1 and 2x2, addon and vanilla.

For what @Thebuttkicker is talking about - I've been basing my martial plot modifiers off my experience in my current game. I build large settlements (I have 50+ settlers in several towns, all with houses and jobs in SimSettlements) and in that scenario space is a big issue, as is the defence penalty I suffer from very large industrial zones. I give more than kinggath's base calculations, so you're probably right that they are overpowered for small settlements, but they should allow large settlements to be built while still satisfying the needs for defence without you having to go and manually defend every attack.

I've been trying to include a number of decent turrets on most of my designs to keep the actual defence as near to the modifiers as possible, but if you rely on martial plots you'll definitely find you're better off with turrets. Having said that, if you're actually there while there's an attack then your presence more than makes up for it. I tend to add extra turrets around my martial plots at spawn points and scatter a few heavy laser turrets through the town.

 

[Thebuttkicker]

@kinggath Just caught up on this thread. I'm also having issues with lvl 1 martial plots doubling their defence and I've had some reports of it as a bug in my addon from Nexus users. It seems to fix at higher tiers though. For me it's happening on all plots, 1x1 and 2x2, addon and vanilla.

For what @Thebuttkicker is talking about - I've been basing my martial plot modifiers off my experience in my current game. I build large settlements (I have 50+ settlers in several towns, all with houses and jobs in SimSettlements) and in that scenario space is a big issue, as is the defence penalty I suffer from very large industrial zones. I give more than kinggath's base calculations, so you're probably right that they are overpowered for small settlements, but they should allow large settlements to be built while still satisfying the needs for defence without you having to go and manually defend every attack.

I've been trying to include a number of decent turrets on most of my designs to keep the actual defence as near to the modifiers as possible, but if you rely on martial plots you'll definitely find you're better off with turrets. Having said that, if you're actually there while there's an attack then your presence more than makes up for it. I tend to add extra turrets around my martial plots at spawn points and scatter a few heavy laser turrets through the town.

I saw you just released your mod on Xbox so I'll probably download it tonight! Looking forward to it, and I think kinggath has a patch for the double defense in the next update