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Solved Molerat ambush in Concord Civic Access causing crash with Sim Settlements enabled

Hangtooth

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Since yesterday's 4.1.1 came along I started a new game with the 3-in-1 pack of Sim Settlements and Conqueror (as well as all the required bits to enable them to run and display the hud etc) and have run into a bug early on. Prior to 4.1.1 this problem never happened, but with 4.1.1 I can replicate the crash every time by enabling the Sim Settlements base module.

The problem occurs in the Concord Civic Access area when you go down and spawn the molerat ambush. The molerats spawn, but act wonky as if they don't detect you. Killing them can result in a crash, but even if you kill the 4 molerats without a crash you will crash next time you quicksave. Can 100% replicate this as well as 100% remove the problem by disabling Sim Settlements base mod. Make a hard save before entering the Concord Civic Access area (after killing the first Deathclaw and clearing the streets) and I use that save as a testing point.

Any confirmation/negation of what I am seeing is welcome. It's early in the game so pretty easy to test.

Googling around shows that this error might be linked to the molerat ambush script and something making it break. I found links to discussion of what sounds like the same bug by googling 'molerat ambush script bug'. Please note in these discussions the poster was not running sim settlements, but the bug sounds eerily familiar and only started happening when I installed 4.1.1 of sim settlements and conqueror. Disabling Conqueror only does nothing to solve the problem, only disabling the base 3-in-1 mod accomplishes that (which also disables Conqueror anyway). I'd post links but I can't apparently.
 
Please note in these discussions the poster was not running sim settlements,

This and other evidence seems to suggests this a bug in the vanilla game and can occur regardless of whether SS is in your LO or not.

It's also important to note that this bug was reported before SS was even released. Here's a quick timeline of reports of this problem:


Can 100% replicate this as well as 100% remove the problem by disabling Sim Settlements base mod. Make a hard save before entering the Concord Civic Access area (after killing the first Deathclaw and clearing the streets) and I use that save as a testing point.

The problem with this test is that all your mods are already baked into you save file at this point.

It also doesn't show whether SS by itself caused the problem. I have played with SS for almost two years and haven't had this problem ever. So I'm skeptical that SS is the problem. And, as shown above, this problem was reported before there even was SS.

Assuming that it is a mod conflict that causing this problem, this doesn't begin to pin down what's conflicting with what. And so we don't know what two mods conflicted to cause the problem in the first place.

A more precise test would be as follows:

Restart the game with no mods at all. Make a hard save before entering the Concord Civic Access area (after killing the first Deathclaw and clearing the streets) and use that save as a testing point.

Does fighting the molerats cause the problem?

Now, rollback to the test point and enable just SS and run the attack. Does the problem occur?

Rollback and enable another mod in your LO and rerun the attack. Repeat this process until the problem occurs.

If/when the problem does occur, rollback to the test point, and disable everything except for the suspect mod.

Can you run the attack with just this mod installed?

If not, you know this mod is in fact the cause of the problem.

But if you can run the attack without problems with just this mod, then it's time to start the process over to find out exactly which two mods are actually conflicting.

Start with trying the attack with just it and SS enabled. Repeat, re-enabling each mod until the exact conflict can be determined.

Once the conflict is precisely pinned down, then we could predict reliably that any user of those conflicting mods would experience the problem.

This insight would be of valuable use to both mod authors and to the community as a whole.
 
This and other evidence seems to suggests this a bug in the vanilla game and can occur regardless of whether SS is in your LO or not.

It's also important to note that this bug was reported before SS was even released. Here's a quick timeline of reports of this problem:




The problem with this test is that all your mods are already baked into you save file at this point.

It also doesn't show whether SS by itself caused the problem. I have played with SS for almost two years and haven't had this problem ever. So I'm skeptical that SS is the problem. And, as shown above, this problem was reported before there even was SS.

Assuming that it is a mod conflict that causing this problem, this doesn't begin to pin down what's conflicting with what. And so we don't know what two mods conflicted to cause the problem in the first place.

A more precise test would be as follows:

Restart the game with no mods at all. Make a hard save before entering the Concord Civic Access area (after killing the first Deathclaw and clearing the streets) and use that save as a testing point.

Does fighting the molerats cause the problem?

Now, rollback to the test point and enable just SS and run the attack. Does the problem occur?

Rollback and enable another mod in your LO and rerun the attack. Repeat this process until the problem occurs.

If/when the problem does occur, rollback to the test point, and disable everything except for the suspect mod.

Can you run the attack with just this mod installed?

If not, you know this mod is in fact the cause of the problem.

But if you can run the attack without problems with just this mod, then it's time to start the process over to find out exactly which two mods are actually conflicting.

Start with trying the attack with just it and SS enabled. Repeat, re-enabling each mod until the exact conflict can be determined.

Once the conflict is precisely pinned down, then we could predict reliably that any user of those conflicting mods would experience the problem.

This insight would be of valuable use to both mod authors and to the community as a whole.

I hope @GA_Darkerside comes back soon.
:clap
We really need a good place to move a post this good.

An explanation this thorough for reoccurring problems is something that I would like to maintain in its own area. Much like the educational-vault.

In 5000hrs I have never seen this one issue either?

As-is I am bookmarking this. This shouldn't just be archived. :declare

@bullyrook this is the best example I think I have seen of a "Defacto" explanation and supported research on the issue/subject. It isn't something you didn't have to do but you did it because you are a great guy and community member.

To everyone else. hahaha, this isn't rockstar kind of stuff. It is "a superstar" kind of stuff. :yahoo There is no award or little tab for someone being this cool as to help someone like this, do this much searching/research, and then document it for an issue they have never experience themselves. :yes3

My recommendation is if you are reading this I would hope you would leave @bullyrook a "like" on the post above. Even if it isn't an issue you have ever encountered. :hi

:acute
 
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Will do a clean test this evening once I am free to see if just SS 3-in-1 causes the issue. The whole slew of mods worked fine together until 4.1.1. I just hoped it was something touched in 4.1.1 in error, but I agree most likely it's a mod incompatibility that arose from 4.1.1's release and may be a pita to track down. Was posting here first in case other people had started a new game since 4.1.1 dropped and were seeing the same issue. I haven't heard from anyone yet so I'll have to get to testing once I spend some time with the wife who just got home from work =)

"t also doesn't show whether SS by itself caused the problem. I have played with SS for almost two years and haven't had this problem ever. So I'm skeptical that SS is the problem. And, as shown above, this problem was reported before there even was SS."

Yes, SS and FO4 ran fine for me for since release as well. First time I have ever seen this bug was when I updated to 4.1.1 and started a new game. As mentioned above I was hoping others would have negation or confirmation to offer if they had started a new game since 4.1.1 was released. It's an easy test but my wife is waiting impatiently so I'll have to get back to you folks on this. Any data from before 4.1.1 was released is not very helpful since it only started with 4.1.1.
 
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Methodology: As per bullyrook's suggestion, I started a fresh unmodded save (all mods disabled, started the game from the FO4 launcher). Saved just after killing the deathclaw for Preston in Concord and saved while standing above the entry to the Concord Civic Access area right after hopping out of the power armor. After each trial, I would add 1 mod (or 1 mod plus whatever requirements it had), run LOOT to create a new load order and go back and load the same save.

Vanilla - no crash after killing/looting molerats
+ SimSettlements base mod: No crashing
+Conqueror and required Workshop Framework: No crashing
+F4SE with no scripts, just using the F4SE launcher" No crashing
+UFO4P: No crashing
+Armorsmith Extended and required AWKCR: No crashing
+all 5 Simple Settlement Plans by bowenje for prebuilts I never built that game: No Crashing

At this stage I am getting tired and am thinking it might be more fruitful to start a parallel save where I start with SimSet, Conq and Workshop Framework at the start to start building Conqueror prebuilts. I'll post more soon. I just begin to suspect the problem might be in the prebuilding stages for Conqueror but I am probably wrong. Just feel the need to test that before going through all my other mods in a game which did not start with Conqueror from the start.
 
@Hangtooth I apologize if it seemed like I came out swinging. Sometimes I like to remind others that on the forum we are simultaneously talking to everyone who might read our posts in the future, and then I go and forget we are still talking to each other, too.:pardon

The first thing I should have addressed is the fact you are having a problem. This reddit post offers up a work around to the problem you are having: https://www.reddit.com/r/FalloutMods/comments/9td0py/fo4_save_freeze_or_game_freeze_after_fighting/

I suspect that this a vanilla bug that arises under mysterious circumstances. If the circumstances weren't mysterious, then in all likelihood the UFO4 patch would have fixed this long ago.

When I started clicking thru the links is when I started to take notice of the dates. I thought it worth pointing out. And that prior to SS, Homemaker and even CBBE it seems were often suspected/blamed of being the culprit: based on the "I removed it and problem went away" logic.

Sometimes mods get an undo reputation for being the cause of something they aren't. Once an undo reputation is established, it can be impossible to shake.

This it what often concerns me when I see this bug brought up. When there's a problem with an unknown cause, speculation and anecdote in lieu of rigorous testing can very well lead to scapegoating. I'm not accusing you of this, at all, but just trying to point out where things can go given the way the internet usually works.

Tracking down the conflict, if it even is a conflict, in a precise way is indeed a pain in the rump. This very fact explains why it's hardly ever done. Would it be worth it in the long run? Theoretically, sure. But we'd have to be prepared for the fact that the effort might turn up no conflict at all.

@1ae0bfb8 , who has suffered from this bug points out:
i never tracked it down to a particular mod because i started a new game with the same mods - didn't happen. go figure.

More evidence, I think, that it's a bug in the game itself and searching for a mod conflict might just be chasing a unicorn.

If I was testing for this, the first thing I'd do is restart my game and see if if happens again. The good news for you is that it seems to have struck early and not level 102, as in @1ae0bfb8 's case.

(I wonder if keeping the problem save on hand might be useful to someone with the time and the chops to pick it apart? For forensics and science.)
 
At this stage I am getting tired and am thinking it might be more fruitful to start a parallel save where I start with SimSet, Conq and Workshop Framework at the start to start building Conqueror prebuilts. I'll post more soon. I just begin to suspect the problem might be in the prebuilding stages for Conqueror but I am probably wrong. Just feel the need to test that before going through all my other mods in a game which did not start with Conqueror from the start.

For Science! is hard work. You are a trooper. I think what you done already is very very helpful in regards to this. And seems to reconfirm that SS isn't the root cause of the problem.

My suspicion, worth this paper it's written on, is that this is a very mysterious bug in the game itself that strikes from the darkness, without warning and seemingly without cause. Pinning down what causes it has been elusive for almost as long as the game has been out. But ruling out causes can be as important as finding the cause itself.
 
Okay, 49 minutes later, new test save with vanilla FO4 plus Sim Settlements, Conqueror and Workshop Framework after the molerats: No crashing.

At this point I am off to bed and will add more of my load order and see if I can find the culprit - if there even actually is one. I know saves just sometimes 'go bad' but I started 3+ new games and had the molerat problem each time, so there seemed to be an incompatibility that appeared that I haven't caught yet. What made me laugh in the links is how random it is. Maybe having a certain size save or certain number of mods loaded or something totally odd like that triggering the problem. Aside from that save that crashes - I probably will never be able to replicate the crashing!

Thanks for the help and the patience!
 
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Thanks, bullyrook. I just kept getting the problem so after two days of starting new games (with fewer and fewer mods) only to crash at that point - I finally asked for help. You gave the help I needed, even if it wasn't the easy fix I wanted, haha. Luckily it was happening early on in the game but from what other posters said, I might get the *same crash* whenever I fought a molerat or radscorpion from that moment on if it was related to the tunneling script. I wasn't going to keep going on a save like that!

I can see now that maybe it's time to really cut back on the mods and get back to essentials to avoid just this type of thing. I am eyeballing the sorting mod at this point which I won't name to step on anyone's toes. That's the first one I'll be testing tomorrow. I think I am currently 'done' with trying to make any sorting mod behave in FO4.

If it matters today I also verified my files ala Steam and regenerated vanilla ini files and redid any additions/changes from scratch to be sure some corruption/error hadn't crept in there somewhere. All I added was the recommended papyrus tweaks for sim settlement performance and a hud colour change.
 
this bug is as old as the game.

it has nothing whatsoever to do with simsettlements or conqueror. nor has it anything to do with your virus scanner settings (mentioned in another post on these forums). These assertions were made after a user removed a mod, or did a *thing*, and the problem went away. it's not correct, its coincidence.

The bug itself, as far as I can tell from reading various posts on forums, is within the game code. What I can tell you is, when you get the bug, the game is toast. I recently played a game where I went to level 102 before it manifested itself. I know now, that the game is broken and if I go into any location where mole rats spawn, so that's the mole rat den under red rocket, the vim factory in far harbour, or the secret vault in vault 81, the game will go into the infinite load screen and that's that.

my workaround for it is to issue the command tdetect and skip around the mole rats. of course, if you're in a location like the vim factory, this also wrecks all the super mutants in there as well, so it's not the best solution, but it's the only solution i know to get you out of a location and able to continue the game.

verifying game files, reinstalling the game, reinstalling windows, formatting your hard drive, turning off your virus scanner, praying to the gods are all wastes of time.

the bug is in the game code itself, and up until now, as far as i know, no-one has found the cause of it, and bethesda ain't fixing it.

the only hope i have is that the UFO4P team can track it down and fix it, but they can only do that if it's not related to the game engine itself, which is where I suspect this problem lies.
 
this bug is as old as the game.
...
the only hope i have is that the UFO4P team can track it down and fix it, but they can only do that if it's not related to the game engine itself, which is where I suspect this problem lies.

Thank you - this is very good to hear. Disturbing that it can manifest at anytime for unknown reasons and wreck your game, but very good to know!

From the responses I would imagine this question is solved unless I manage to find the culprit where nobody else seems able - and I doubt trying different mod loadouts will be the solution from what I am reading from you guys.

Silver lining - recognized something new that if spotted, will show me it's time to start a new game or hope an earlier hard save is not a ticking time bomb waiting for the next molerat to happen.

Thank you for the thoughtful responses - marking this one solved - as you've all convinced me that it is a vanilla bug that nobody can find the root cause of - or solve (yet!).
 
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There was a non aggro molerat at starlight drive in. I had the impression it was created by sim settements as decoration so i left it alive.

After killing this one I was able to complete Shamrock Taphouse.
Still problems with Vault 88 Skorpions but I noticed this friendly(?) molerat at Starlight Drive In is back.
 
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