- Messages
- 1,678
Just curious: how did you deal with the spawn point at the far end of the sanctuary bridge between it and red rocket if you walled in the whole thing together?
the Sim Settlements forums!
Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!
Let's Talk Balance
- Thread starter kinggath
- Start date
Just curious: how did you deal with the spawn point at the far end of the sanctuary bridge between it and red rocket if you walled in the whole thing together?
Liberty Bull
Member
- Messages
- 69
I actually didn't do anything besides have a checkpoint on the sanctuary side of the bridge. However all settlements extended pushes out the attacker spawn points and since sanctuary and red rockets build zones are right up against each other I don't believe there is one on the other side of the bridge.
Laughing Alex
New Member
- Messages
- 11
I have some thoughts, firstly I disagree with the nuke shell production being to high with the factory, because as it stands the nuclear arms factory is almost in a "Awesome, but impractical" category of usefullness. It's actually rather near useless because of how much time it can take to get and how many people have to be dedicated towards it and you have to hold back a mine shaft from upgrading right away. At the same time, I kind of feel the munitions factory produces to little ammo(and I felt the same about the microfusion garage and I didn't notice anything from the advanced weaponry factory).
I think though that many of the "Aweosme but impractical!"-ness of some advanced industries can be address by enabling supply lines to move knowledges and some shouldn't be 'nerfed' until that is addressed.
With the current standard a nerf to the nuclear arms factory would make it something I outright hate for it's mere existence(I hate everything thats awesome but impractical, it's a pet peve of mine). The thing is you have to dump 5 people into industry from the get-go pretty much to get it early on and the happiness penalties are such you have to dedicate everyone else towards maintaining happiness through recreation plots. After that then you probably going to need extra defense so you'll have no one left for any kind of shops.
Supply lines need to share technologies before nuclear arms is nerfed. Cause I do agree that, if you do get one and then remove everything else then yeah, it'd be overpowered if your willing to do that. The nuclear arms plant should probably only produe 1-2 mini nukes. It's just as it stands I feel that the rules should be as follows;
A pre-req should not be scrapped or removed after the things it unlocks are built, it should have to stay for those industries to work.
Supply lines should transfer knowledges. This would allow for balancing some of the plots better as you wouldn't be making any of them "Impractical".
Conventional ammo factories(the munitions and the microfusion garage) should produce more imo. They only produce once every few days, I tend to find far more ammo in the wasteland already by the bucket-loads.
Nuclear arms does not need to be making MIRV launchers(I hate the weapon and feel it's useless and impractical anyways, though I could see it being built a little earlier but I hate it's short range, useless), and would be fine producing 1-2 mini nukes per cycle if supply lines shared knowledges, players serious about mini nuke production could set up more than one town for them using supply lines. The -50 happiness is enough by itself. Not to mention....
....Why is microfusion garage BEHIND nuclear arms? Shouldn't it unlock with, I dunno, nuclear enrichment or something?
Many power plants are tier 3. You need such a massive amount of power to get a nuclear plant that you probably won't need one by the time you build one and nuclear power plants are useless from having identical pre-reqs to nuclear arms and lack of shared knowledges.
Speaking of....
Medical grade plastic is pretty much a "Unlock" building. Likewise so is the plastics and polymers, I couldn't help but feel I needed plastics and polymers to also be somewhat of a "Cybernetics core!" in that they unlocked many technology paths.
We need a clear tech-tree and supply lines to share knowledges before nerfs and shared knowledges with supply lines imo would make balancing sim settlements far more practical.
I think though that many of the "Aweosme but impractical!"-ness of some advanced industries can be address by enabling supply lines to move knowledges and some shouldn't be 'nerfed' until that is addressed.
With the current standard a nerf to the nuclear arms factory would make it something I outright hate for it's mere existence(I hate everything thats awesome but impractical, it's a pet peve of mine). The thing is you have to dump 5 people into industry from the get-go pretty much to get it early on and the happiness penalties are such you have to dedicate everyone else towards maintaining happiness through recreation plots. After that then you probably going to need extra defense so you'll have no one left for any kind of shops.
Supply lines need to share technologies before nuclear arms is nerfed. Cause I do agree that, if you do get one and then remove everything else then yeah, it'd be overpowered if your willing to do that. The nuclear arms plant should probably only produe 1-2 mini nukes. It's just as it stands I feel that the rules should be as follows;
A pre-req should not be scrapped or removed after the things it unlocks are built, it should have to stay for those industries to work.
Supply lines should transfer knowledges. This would allow for balancing some of the plots better as you wouldn't be making any of them "Impractical".
Conventional ammo factories(the munitions and the microfusion garage) should produce more imo. They only produce once every few days, I tend to find far more ammo in the wasteland already by the bucket-loads.
Nuclear arms does not need to be making MIRV launchers(I hate the weapon and feel it's useless and impractical anyways, though I could see it being built a little earlier but I hate it's short range, useless), and would be fine producing 1-2 mini nukes per cycle if supply lines shared knowledges, players serious about mini nuke production could set up more than one town for them using supply lines. The -50 happiness is enough by itself. Not to mention....
....Why is microfusion garage BEHIND nuclear arms? Shouldn't it unlock with, I dunno, nuclear enrichment or something?
Many power plants are tier 3. You need such a massive amount of power to get a nuclear plant that you probably won't need one by the time you build one and nuclear power plants are useless from having identical pre-reqs to nuclear arms and lack of shared knowledges.
Speaking of....
Medical grade plastic is pretty much a "Unlock" building. Likewise so is the plastics and polymers, I couldn't help but feel I needed plastics and polymers to also be somewhat of a "Cybernetics core!" in that they unlocked many technology paths.
We need a clear tech-tree and supply lines to share knowledges before nerfs and shared knowledges with supply lines imo would make balancing sim settlements far more practical.
- Messages
- 5,189
I will say that much of Sim Settlements is always going to fall into the "awesome, but impractical" category - for example, homes and shops are mostly about aesthetics, their size is very impractical if you're min-maxing, when you could just build vanilla objects to serve the same purposes. I think settlement building needs to have a bit of art in it, or what's the point? With Industrial Revolution though, I do want to achieve some sort of balance in the production.
I did not do shared knowledge with supply lines, because I have other plans for knowledge in the mod and don't want to have to nerf the sharing later on. So given that shared knowledge is still a ways off, it sounds like the current outputs are too low on a settlement by settlement basis - what about in the grand scheme of things? I definitely started very conservatively with output because I didn't want to invalidate the rest of the game as a means of getting things. For example, a single ammo plant isn't meant to supply you with all of the ammo you'll ever need. Sounds like it's under-producing though, but what would you recommend would be a better amount per production cycle? Like how many "clips" would you like to see for whatever weapon it happens to generate ammunition for.
Some of the branching was done to lock out powerful things and might have let logic get fuzzy (ie. the garage after nuclear), the Microfusion Garage essentially gives you access to unlimited fusion cores - so I wanted that to require a significant investment. You're absolutely right about the power buildings, until shared knowledge comes around, they are of limited practical use.
The plastics are something I have in the works, its unfortunately taken longer than I had anticipated, so they don't have any practical application other than unlocks - it's one of those things where if I had unlimited time, I'd have addressed by now, but ultimately I've just been working on other things with the time I do have (I'm finally starting to understand why so many game developers seem be working on random things instead of "fixing the problems!", it's often just a matter of which team members turn in which work and how practical something is to implement).
I did not do shared knowledge with supply lines, because I have other plans for knowledge in the mod and don't want to have to nerf the sharing later on. So given that shared knowledge is still a ways off, it sounds like the current outputs are too low on a settlement by settlement basis - what about in the grand scheme of things? I definitely started very conservatively with output because I didn't want to invalidate the rest of the game as a means of getting things. For example, a single ammo plant isn't meant to supply you with all of the ammo you'll ever need. Sounds like it's under-producing though, but what would you recommend would be a better amount per production cycle? Like how many "clips" would you like to see for whatever weapon it happens to generate ammunition for.
Some of the branching was done to lock out powerful things and might have let logic get fuzzy (ie. the garage after nuclear), the Microfusion Garage essentially gives you access to unlimited fusion cores - so I wanted that to require a significant investment. You're absolutely right about the power buildings, until shared knowledge comes around, they are of limited practical use.
The plastics are something I have in the works, its unfortunately taken longer than I had anticipated, so they don't have any practical application other than unlocks - it's one of those things where if I had unlimited time, I'd have addressed by now, but ultimately I've just been working on other things with the time I do have (I'm finally starting to understand why so many game developers seem be working on random things instead of "fixing the problems!", it's often just a matter of which team members turn in which work and how practical something is to implement).
harlee thomas
New Member
- Messages
- 6
well i think there are plots that could be nerfed because you can use some to some good items early i also have a problem where my game likes to crash sometimes when plot starts upgrading or finishes upgrading
I started sim settlements with a new character on survival and my main issue was feeling like I never had enough resources in the beginning to set up a settlement to let it grow with out having to come back all the time. without fast travel or having access to vertibirds it feels very cumbersome to build up various settlements (this is a problem in vanilla fallout too). I like having plot costs but I think it would be cool if there was a way to somehow have debt or pay for plots later so you can set up a settlement with limited resources and then once it is fully functioning and profitable you would pay the money or resources back. It could either be seen as borrowing or leaving a plan for the settlement that would be carried out by your settlers once there was enough resources.
Another solution that still feels balanced and lore friendly is if you have caravan routes between your settlements, you could fast travel or ride on the caravans between your settlements. That would make it significantly easier to check up on your settlements in survival, and also might make the way you set up your caravan routes more important.
Another solution that still feels balanced and lore friendly is if you have caravan routes between your settlements, you could fast travel or ride on the caravans between your settlements. That would make it significantly easier to check up on your settlements in survival, and also might make the way you set up your caravan routes more important.
- Messages
- 5,189
There is a holotape option to turn off plot costs (which makes the sensors cost 1 steel and the plots only cost 1 sensor) - though its definitely not balanced. A deficit system would be interesting, maybe hold back upgrades until you supplied enough scrap to meet it?
I think there's a mod that does this actually!
I think there's a mod that does this actually!
harlee thomas
New Member
- Messages
- 6
anyone have an xbox, if so wanna hang out sometime also king keep up the good work. may preston be with you
Havik79
Active Member
- Messages
- 132
I often reroll/restart this game (a few times due to cool new things In this mod) and these are my thoughts.
Once I have talked with the clanker in sanctuary, what his name again codworth or something, I go around and scrap everything, build some power, and put down some water purifiers, sleep for a couple of days, put some non simset defense, then go to concord, once that is done one of the first things I get manned is a well, which I dump any dirty water I have into the stockpile.
So for one, I wish it was possible to help "goose along" more of the advance buildings, in my current run my well is now waiting for me to decide which level 3 building I want, while my mine is still stuck as a mine, which I am thinking of removing due to how slow it is, even when I take out the ore and stuff from the workshop and put it back into the mine stockpile it seems to take forever to upgrade, some as with the papermill.
The other thing for me I food, I ended up banning all farms except the fishing pond from that always free simset mod, as it gives 4 food at level 1 compared to 2.
Probably not a balance thing, but I do wish there was an option to see what advance building leads to at each upgrade.
Once I have talked with the clanker in sanctuary, what his name again codworth or something, I go around and scrap everything, build some power, and put down some water purifiers, sleep for a couple of days, put some non simset defense, then go to concord, once that is done one of the first things I get manned is a well, which I dump any dirty water I have into the stockpile.
So for one, I wish it was possible to help "goose along" more of the advance buildings, in my current run my well is now waiting for me to decide which level 3 building I want, while my mine is still stuck as a mine, which I am thinking of removing due to how slow it is, even when I take out the ore and stuff from the workshop and put it back into the mine stockpile it seems to take forever to upgrade, some as with the papermill.
The other thing for me I food, I ended up banning all farms except the fishing pond from that always free simset mod, as it gives 4 food at level 1 compared to 2.
Probably not a balance thing, but I do wish there was an option to see what advance building leads to at each upgrade.
- Messages
- 286
Here on the forums, there is a topic about what advanced plots lead to what. However, it's unlikely to be added to the game as kinggath wants the mod to be a little intuitive.
Havik79
Active Member
- Messages
- 132
Martin Rudat
Member
- Messages
- 4
Edit: combined summary of thoughts:
It would be useful to be able to have plots in partial operation, ie. only produce some fraction of possible output, with the settler idle or perhaps assigned to guard duty while otherwise idle. A plot might be in partial production for any number of reasons, eg. not producing enough to exceed defence values, not consuming more power than is available, not having enough manpower available, ...
For tier 1 plots, it would be useful to be able to have settlers work part-time on multiple plots, as this would allow you to establish a new settlement with a full suite of facilities zoned (food, water, defence, housing, power), but have the settlement be self-sufficient with any number of settlers.
It would be useful for a plot to evaluate if it would cause a shortage if it were to upgrade as one of its upgrade conditions, and for this to be reported in a 'future needs met' meter for each resource type there is some dependency upon, in addition to the existing 'current needs met'.
I'd much prefer that settlers building stuff consumed resources, rather than using the sensors as a resource stand-in; this would both delay expansion as well as not result in a late-game glut of resources that would usually have been spent on building settlements. On easy mode, I think that I'd cost it as n units of resources, and consume whichever resource has the most in stock at present, on more difficult settings it should require the same resources the PC would have needed (perhaps pull costs from Homemaker as one of the mods that allows you to build nearly anything). Ideally there would be resource-dependent upgrade paths, so if you build lots of industry producing high-tech components you'll get laser turrets, while if you have lots of ammo factories you'll get ballistic turrets, rather than just spawning set turret types.
----
Just thinking out loud here, but:
Would it be feasible to support more than 3 tiers without having to rewrite things? For some plots the step between tiers seems to be larger than others, and it could be helpful to have more stages to spread things out more.
Would it be possible to support a per-plot 'brown-out' (as opposed to turning off a random set of things entirely (usually water purifiers, as one of the single most expensive power using things) until you build enough generators)? ie. if total power demands are too great, start scaling back individual plot power consumption (and production) until requirements are met or everything is running on minimum power. Ideally this would feed into the plot animations/sandboxing. A plot that's only running at 50% capacity might only puff half the amount of smoke it usually does, or the settler might shut things down and wander off half the time (similar to a vanilla farmer farming less than 6 units of food). Obviously a plot that doesn't have its power needs met isn't likely to upgrade.
Actually, taking the previous a step further, could there be orthogonal upgrades, depending on what else is in the settlement? eg. To get turrets on your martial plots you'll want an ammunition factory in order to produce the ammunition the turrets need; the ammunition the factory dumps into the workshop is logically the excess after feeding the turrets and settlers guns; perhaps the ammo it makes relates to the turret and settler guns. Ideally each of the various forms of industrialisation would have some sort of impact on each of the other plot types.
I initially expected (especially given some of the phrasing) that we would use plots for everything, even if only purely from the point of view of laziness. I'd kind of expected a 'utilities' advanced industrial plot that's got a small generator and a hand-pump well, which slowly builds more generators and or/wells to support population growth, eventually it would unlock a power house/water treatment plant, and then eventually a miniature nuclear power plant.
I'd actually expect resource generation on the whole to be much less than it appears to have been so far, as you no longer are consuming much of those resources to build the settlement, the only sink for those resources are in equipping the player, or explicitly equipping your companions or the settlers. Perhaps alternatively, either logical resources generated by the industrial (or perhaps all) plots, which are then consumed to actually perform all upgrades, or actually consume settlement resources to perform upgrades (with a limit of having at least, say, 200 of any particular resource remaining after upgrades as a buffer).
Given that settlements are currently self-contained as far as Sim Settlements is concerned, it clearly couldn't work that way, but I'd expect that a steel mill would require having n (6-ish?) mines in the settlement network to produce enough ore to feed the mill. For a self-contained settlement that would prove too expensive.
I know that the vanilla system doesn't do it that way (and I don't know how flexible your assignment system is), but would it be feasible to have settlers work part-time on multiple plots (probably only tier 1, as higher tiers would presumably need specialised knowledge gained from looking after the tier 1 plot)? eg. This would allow you to zone power, water, food, defence, and have a lone settler handle all four (without going I'm thirsty/hungry/scared/etc.), as the amount of effort for producing enough power, water, food and defence for one settler is well within what one settler can do; perhaps set power/water/food to cost 1/6 settler-day per unit of resource generated (logically higher tier plots could be more efficient due to automation (eg. electric pump/purifier), or just being more reliable). Eventually you'd have enough work that there would be settlers dedicated to each role, but you'd likely still have casual workers taking up the slack (as opposed to working 1/12 of a day then wandering around going "Now what?" the rest of the time).
A related thought is that a martial plot ideally needs 3 settlers assigned to it for its full defence value (at least before automated defences) to provide 24-hour coverage, the ideal long-term watch schedule is something like 4 hours on, 4 hours off, 4 hours on, 12 hours off, but you could only achieve that with multiple guard posts and multiple assigned settlers. If you go with part-time work, then until automated defences go in any slack could be consumed by manning the guard posts (with the associated impact on defence values).
At least to start with I've found the sensors rather expensive, but later on with a large industrial base they're proportionally much cheaper, not quite an afterthought given the high-tech components required for their manufacture, but I didn't find myself running out of sensors to build up a new settlement, only to discover I lacked the resources to craft more. I think that I would find it more fun, though, to be able to just zone stuff, but that a settler building a tier-1 plot either consumes a sensor, or crafts one from settlement resources; or perhaps a cost in caps to zone more stuff, given you collect taxes?
One thing that I'd expect to be able to do without costing another sensor is re-zoning a plot, or is the sensor being consumed logically part of the cost of re-zoning a plot? If it wasn't, I'd expect to be able to re-zone a plot by interacting with the sensor; I imagine that there's an engine limitation, eg. moving from an plot not connected to power to one that requires power would likely be non-trivial to do, as opposed to just crafting another one.
One more thought that occurs is that before an upgrade is completed, it should check that it won't cause problems after the upgrade completes, eg. not having enough defence post-upgrade.
Perhaps then instead of the meter being 'plots with power', or 'do you have enough defence now', it should instead be 'number of plots that could upgrade without needing more food/water/power/defence/...'? A tier 3 plot would either not count, or count as a plot that could be upgraded, if only so a settlement that's fully upgraded has all of the meters full. It would offend people who insist that all the meters be full at all times, but it would make it more clear what a meter not being full means and if you should try and do something about it Right Now or not. Perhaps a two-part meter, eg. left half is 'current needs met' and right half is 'future needs met'?
It would mean that we'd want more meters, eg. once the first martial plot goes in, it adds a new meter saying you need more industrial plots for it to upgrade.
It would be useful to be able to have plots in partial operation, ie. only produce some fraction of possible output, with the settler idle or perhaps assigned to guard duty while otherwise idle. A plot might be in partial production for any number of reasons, eg. not producing enough to exceed defence values, not consuming more power than is available, not having enough manpower available, ...
For tier 1 plots, it would be useful to be able to have settlers work part-time on multiple plots, as this would allow you to establish a new settlement with a full suite of facilities zoned (food, water, defence, housing, power), but have the settlement be self-sufficient with any number of settlers.
It would be useful for a plot to evaluate if it would cause a shortage if it were to upgrade as one of its upgrade conditions, and for this to be reported in a 'future needs met' meter for each resource type there is some dependency upon, in addition to the existing 'current needs met'.
I'd much prefer that settlers building stuff consumed resources, rather than using the sensors as a resource stand-in; this would both delay expansion as well as not result in a late-game glut of resources that would usually have been spent on building settlements. On easy mode, I think that I'd cost it as n units of resources, and consume whichever resource has the most in stock at present, on more difficult settings it should require the same resources the PC would have needed (perhaps pull costs from Homemaker as one of the mods that allows you to build nearly anything). Ideally there would be resource-dependent upgrade paths, so if you build lots of industry producing high-tech components you'll get laser turrets, while if you have lots of ammo factories you'll get ballistic turrets, rather than just spawning set turret types.
----
Just thinking out loud here, but:
Would it be feasible to support more than 3 tiers without having to rewrite things? For some plots the step between tiers seems to be larger than others, and it could be helpful to have more stages to spread things out more.
Would it be possible to support a per-plot 'brown-out' (as opposed to turning off a random set of things entirely (usually water purifiers, as one of the single most expensive power using things) until you build enough generators)? ie. if total power demands are too great, start scaling back individual plot power consumption (and production) until requirements are met or everything is running on minimum power. Ideally this would feed into the plot animations/sandboxing. A plot that's only running at 50% capacity might only puff half the amount of smoke it usually does, or the settler might shut things down and wander off half the time (similar to a vanilla farmer farming less than 6 units of food). Obviously a plot that doesn't have its power needs met isn't likely to upgrade.
Actually, taking the previous a step further, could there be orthogonal upgrades, depending on what else is in the settlement? eg. To get turrets on your martial plots you'll want an ammunition factory in order to produce the ammunition the turrets need; the ammunition the factory dumps into the workshop is logically the excess after feeding the turrets and settlers guns; perhaps the ammo it makes relates to the turret and settler guns. Ideally each of the various forms of industrialisation would have some sort of impact on each of the other plot types.
I initially expected (especially given some of the phrasing) that we would use plots for everything, even if only purely from the point of view of laziness. I'd kind of expected a 'utilities' advanced industrial plot that's got a small generator and a hand-pump well, which slowly builds more generators and or/wells to support population growth, eventually it would unlock a power house/water treatment plant, and then eventually a miniature nuclear power plant.
I'd actually expect resource generation on the whole to be much less than it appears to have been so far, as you no longer are consuming much of those resources to build the settlement, the only sink for those resources are in equipping the player, or explicitly equipping your companions or the settlers. Perhaps alternatively, either logical resources generated by the industrial (or perhaps all) plots, which are then consumed to actually perform all upgrades, or actually consume settlement resources to perform upgrades (with a limit of having at least, say, 200 of any particular resource remaining after upgrades as a buffer).
Given that settlements are currently self-contained as far as Sim Settlements is concerned, it clearly couldn't work that way, but I'd expect that a steel mill would require having n (6-ish?) mines in the settlement network to produce enough ore to feed the mill. For a self-contained settlement that would prove too expensive.
I know that the vanilla system doesn't do it that way (and I don't know how flexible your assignment system is), but would it be feasible to have settlers work part-time on multiple plots (probably only tier 1, as higher tiers would presumably need specialised knowledge gained from looking after the tier 1 plot)? eg. This would allow you to zone power, water, food, defence, and have a lone settler handle all four (without going I'm thirsty/hungry/scared/etc.), as the amount of effort for producing enough power, water, food and defence for one settler is well within what one settler can do; perhaps set power/water/food to cost 1/6 settler-day per unit of resource generated (logically higher tier plots could be more efficient due to automation (eg. electric pump/purifier), or just being more reliable). Eventually you'd have enough work that there would be settlers dedicated to each role, but you'd likely still have casual workers taking up the slack (as opposed to working 1/12 of a day then wandering around going "Now what?" the rest of the time).
A related thought is that a martial plot ideally needs 3 settlers assigned to it for its full defence value (at least before automated defences) to provide 24-hour coverage, the ideal long-term watch schedule is something like 4 hours on, 4 hours off, 4 hours on, 12 hours off, but you could only achieve that with multiple guard posts and multiple assigned settlers. If you go with part-time work, then until automated defences go in any slack could be consumed by manning the guard posts (with the associated impact on defence values).
At least to start with I've found the sensors rather expensive, but later on with a large industrial base they're proportionally much cheaper, not quite an afterthought given the high-tech components required for their manufacture, but I didn't find myself running out of sensors to build up a new settlement, only to discover I lacked the resources to craft more. I think that I would find it more fun, though, to be able to just zone stuff, but that a settler building a tier-1 plot either consumes a sensor, or crafts one from settlement resources; or perhaps a cost in caps to zone more stuff, given you collect taxes?
One thing that I'd expect to be able to do without costing another sensor is re-zoning a plot, or is the sensor being consumed logically part of the cost of re-zoning a plot? If it wasn't, I'd expect to be able to re-zone a plot by interacting with the sensor; I imagine that there's an engine limitation, eg. moving from an plot not connected to power to one that requires power would likely be non-trivial to do, as opposed to just crafting another one.
One more thought that occurs is that before an upgrade is completed, it should check that it won't cause problems after the upgrade completes, eg. not having enough defence post-upgrade.
Perhaps then instead of the meter being 'plots with power', or 'do you have enough defence now', it should instead be 'number of plots that could upgrade without needing more food/water/power/defence/...'? A tier 3 plot would either not count, or count as a plot that could be upgraded, if only so a settlement that's fully upgraded has all of the meters full. It would offend people who insist that all the meters be full at all times, but it would make it more clear what a meter not being full means and if you should try and do something about it Right Now or not. Perhaps a two-part meter, eg. left half is 'current needs met' and right half is 'future needs met'?
It would mean that we'd want more meters, eg. once the first martial plot goes in, it adds a new meter saying you need more industrial plots for it to upgrade.
Last edited:
- Messages
- 94
Aesthetics aside:
- They impede roaming attacks. Like the sentrybot near Murkwater.
- They provide cover. Such as from highway Gunners near Finch Farm.
- They block explosions from crashing Vertibirds levelling your resources.
- Walled-in purifiers and generators are protected in firefights.
- Messages
- 94
I'm happy with the ammo plant production. I think the conservative approach is correct: about 1 ammo box of stuff after every "average" wait between settlement visits. Too much and it detracts from the game: "killing enemies, taking their stuff" is a central mechanic, and nearly all the time the only stuff worth taking is ammo.
Going back to the Nuclear Arms Factory, mini nukes are like Nuka-Quantum - a singular find, capping off a dungeon. Fatmen are restricted, and the MIRV even more so. How would that translate into SS? I'd say 1 or 2 mini nukes after every "average" wait, and the Fat Man obtained once on construction. The MIRV could result from an interaction adventure, alongside a second Fat Man.
AmazonQueen
Active Member
- Messages
- 213
I like the changes the latest patch made. Not requiring power for martial plots at level 1 is a big help when you only have couple of people at a settlement.
I don't think plots can be balanced with turrets. True, martial plots are more useful than vanilla guard posts, but I only ever used vanilla guard posts for aesthetic reasons. Martial plots still need settlers and with SS I have a lot more uses for settlers than before. In vanilla a settlement of 10 people can be a nice little adhesive farm with a full set of shops, I find extra settlers jobs but I don't really need more settlers. With SS I'm still facing choices about where to use settlers with pops of 20+. In my current Sanctuary (22 settlers) I have 3 level 3 and 1 level 1 martial plot but half my defence comes from turrets. I don't really want one third of my pop to be manning defences.
I don't think plots can be balanced with turrets. True, martial plots are more useful than vanilla guard posts, but I only ever used vanilla guard posts for aesthetic reasons. Martial plots still need settlers and with SS I have a lot more uses for settlers than before. In vanilla a settlement of 10 people can be a nice little adhesive farm with a full set of shops, I find extra settlers jobs but I don't really need more settlers. With SS I'm still facing choices about where to use settlers with pops of 20+. In my current Sanctuary (22 settlers) I have 3 level 3 and 1 level 1 martial plot but half my defence comes from turrets. I don't really want one third of my pop to be manning defences.
- Messages
- 5,189
I actually have a half-finished in-game tech tree! Though it's slow going as the engine has so many limitations....
- Messages
- 5,189
That's kind of how I'd expect it to play out. In the early game, when resources are tight, Martial plots should make sense. In the late game, when you're heavily producing, the most efficient use of resources would be to automate defenses. So we need to get the Martial plots where they're useful early and become obsolete only in the "late game" of your settlement's growth.
Last edited:
- Messages
- 1,256
The obsolete martial plots in late game is why I made my version a late game unlock with more defense actually (and still mostly automated with turrets and protectrons) (+10, +20, +40 defense over a standard 1x1 turret). I'm glad that fits with the general concept, I was worried I would unbalance things
- Messages
- 5,189
I guess obsolete is a bad phrase. For players who are min-maxing, using settlers for anything other than production is not worth it when alternatives exist. Since we have turrets, turret spam always becomes the most efficient means of defense - it's just not very fun, or pretty. I personally keep Martial Plots around to add some style, but the only way to actually make them useful forever would be to start interfering with vanilla game mechanics - do something like artificially cap the number of turrets you can build (which I'm not going to do).
Martin Rudat
Member
- Messages
- 4
Perhaps a late-game martial plot that doesn't directly produce any defence, but acts as a force multiplier for existing defence, eg. acts as to repair, maintain and feed ammo to turrets? Have it, say, improve the RoF and/or aim and/or damage for up to n turrets per plot (they can be pushed harder and work better because the turrets get regular expert maintenance and ammo replenishment, as opposed to vanilla turrets which get ignored until they stop working), with a corresponding increase in defence per turret. Ideally it would also be able to up-gun turrets, so if you manually place a basic turret, you may return later to find a heavy laser turret in its place.
Along the same lines, would it be feasible to create something that works settlement-wide similar to the automatron mods that boost ally healing/damage/etc? It would effectively add some amount of defence per-settler, as each settler would be some amount more effective in combat.
In both cases there's no need to stop the player from building them immediately, but unless you've got lots of turrets or lots of settlers, you get more combat effectiveness (and ideally a defence value that represents the combat effectiveness) out of the existing martial plots.
Along the same lines, would it be feasible to create something that works settlement-wide similar to the automatron mods that boost ally healing/damage/etc? It would effectively add some amount of defence per-settler, as each settler would be some amount more effective in combat.
In both cases there's no need to stop the player from building them immediately, but unless you've got lots of turrets or lots of settlers, you get more combat effectiveness (and ideally a defence value that represents the combat effectiveness) out of the existing martial plots.