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Is Subversion - The Institute-Railroad Alliance Alternate Ending Compatible?

RichardG

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Just a short question, looking for a short answer. Is

Subversion - The Institute-Railroad Alliance Alternate Ending Compatible with SS2? I hate the vanilla endings for FO4 I have hated them since the first time I ever played FO4 and have used the Subversion mod in the past but never with SS2 and I do not want to get to far into SS2 and find they are not compatible. Thanks.

 
They are compatible. As of Chapter 2, SS2 doesn't affect the vanilla story or factions, so it shouldn't conflict with Subversion. AFAIK, the only intersection between SS2 and the vanilla story is being able to ask for help at a particular point from the factions that you're part of.
 
Thank you for the info. What is AFAIK in plan English? I do not do well with acronyms.
Watched the videos you posted on the mod. Very interesting idea. Just a few questions.
1. Is all the dialogue from unused files in the vanilla game or did you have to stitch vanilla files together to get it? If it's not whoever did the voices got them spot on.
2. The Piper video will it take into account if the player has read the terminal entries in the SRB about the mayor?
Just curious as I have played FO4 since the day it was released in all it's buggy goodness and any change up of the game I welcome with open arms.
 
AFAIK = as far as I know

I say that just because I haven't reached the end of Chapter 2 yet, so maybe someone else will be able to give you better information. Also, I understand there'll be more interaction with the factions in Chapter 3 so we'll need to see what happens there. I have both Subversion and SS2 in my load order, and so far all seems good.

To answer your questions:

1. It's dialogue that's stitched together from the vanilla game, except for some of Nick's lines where I used xVAsynth. DanRuta's done an amazing job but I agree with Kinggath that the technology's not quite good enough for a human character. Works pretty well for Nick though.

2. Yes, the conversation will be different if you've read the terminal entry (it's going to require a vanilla edit but I don't think there's any way around it and it's a pretty small one). If you have the mayor's report from "Political Leanings", then you can show that to Piper.
 
AFAIK = as far as I know

I say that just because I haven't reached the end of Chapter 2 yet, so maybe someone else will be able to give you better information. Also, I understand there'll be more interaction with the factions in Chapter 3 so we'll need to see what happens there. I have both Subversion and SS2 in my load order, and so far all seems good.

To answer your questions:

1. It's dialogue that's stitched together from the vanilla game, except for some of Nick's lines where I used xVAsynth. DanRuta's done an amazing job but I agree with Kinggath that the technology's not quite good enough for a human character. Works pretty well for Nick though.

2. Yes, the conversation will be different if you've read the terminal entry (it's going to require a vanilla edit but I don't think there's any way around it and it's a pretty small one). If you have the mayor's report from "Political Leanings", then you can show that to Piper.
Thank you for your answers. It always fascinated me how mod authors have been able to use the vanilla dialogue file in their mods in such creative ways. Keep up the good work. I look forward to installing the mod when you release it.
 
Not to necro an old thread, but I was wondering if asking for help from each faction will still work after you've started subversion and have become the director or replaced elder maxon. I'm kinda curious about trying to get maximum support from each faction before attacking the Gunner Plaza.
 
Not to necro an old thread, but I was wondering if asking for help from each faction will still work after you've started subversion and have become the director or replaced elder maxon. I'm kinda curious about trying to get maximum support from each faction before attacking the Gunner Plaza.
It'll almost certainly not work the way you're hoping. What SS2 does to check if you have "support" or "alliances" with the base game's factions is checking for if certain BASE GAME quests have been completed. If my understanding of what Subversion does is correct (been a while since I played that through myself), Institute and maybe Minutemen should be still recruitable, but I suspect not for Railroad or Brotherhood.
 
It'll almost certainly not work the way you're hoping. What SS2 does to check if you have "support" or "alliances" with the base game's factions is checking for if certain BASE GAME quests have been completed. If my understanding of what Subversion does is correct (been a while since I played that through myself), Institute and maybe Minutemen should be still recruitable, but I suspect not for Railroad or Brotherhood.
Thanks for saving my save from locking out 2 factions, then.
 
Thanks for saving my save from locking out 2 factions, then.
If my memory of all the 'triggers' is correct, for the Battle For GNN you can have all four factions there with you if you stop the Vanilla Main Quest at the point where you've just met Father and proceed no further - at least don't go to a point where the game pops up a message saying "THIS WILL MAKE YOU ENEMIES WITH X FOREVAR". There's a point there where you're technically friendly with all four Base Game Factions, and if I'm not mistaken this is before Subversion will have changed anything.

The other check later in Chapter 3 for that (which DullOldDogooder was referring to), I believe that checks for the "ending quest" of the Vanilla Main Quest, the one that would trigger the second narrated cutscene - however it may or may not also be possible to get, say, Institute + Minutemen for that, because I THINK the check for Minutemen isn't actually their Final Quest. I'd open the data up and double check that but I've told Steam to not update FO4 or the Creation Kit until I tell it to.
 
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If my memory of all the 'triggers' is correct, for the Battle For GNN you can have all four factions there with you if you stop the Vanilla Main Quest at the point where you've just met Father and proceed no further - at least don't go to a point where the game pops up a message saying "THIS WILL MAKE YOU ENEMIES WITH X FOREVAR". There's a point there where you're technically friendly with all four Base Game Factions, and if I'm not mistaken this is before Subversion will have changed anything.

The other check later in Chapter 3 for that (which DullOldDogooder was referring to), I believe that checks for the "ending quest" of the Vanilla Main Quest, the one that would trigger the second narrated cutscene - however it may or may not also be possible to get, say, Institute + Minutemen for that, because I THINK the check for Minutemen isn't actually their Final Quest. I'd open the data up and double check that but I've told Steam to not update FO4 or the Creation Kit until I tell it to.
See under Possible Alliances and Requirements - There's a list of the vanilla and SS2 quests required to ally with each of the Factions there.
 
They are compatible but Subversion isn't normally accounted for when you make alliances. Before chapter 3 it's what yaugie said, and for the chapter 3 allies I've made a section about Subversion in here.
 
I know the original question was asked over 2 years ago, but the topic is still relevant and I thought it better to continue this one instead of starting a new one.

As a note, I will be mentioning some things that are likely considered "spoilers" so if someone is interested in using Subversion but doesn't want the story spoiled, best to avoid reading this.


I recently completed my first game using Subversion. I had previously been using the Thuggy mods (OaR, Depr, and PV) and have been using those mods alongside SS2 for several years. The Thuggy mods worked fine with Chapter 1, but the release of Chapter 2 created some nasty conflicts. Chapter 3 also created some issues with the faction options, but that was easily dealt with via console commands provided in the "unofficial Ch 3 guide". A while back there were some Thuggy/SS2 compatibility patches created that allowed everything to work "mostly" fine together, as long as you completed the Thuggy stuff before getting far into Chapter 2. I just got tired of all the garbage added by the Thuggy mods, and after reading about Subversion, I decided to just wipe all Thuggy content from my game and try Subversion instead.

For this play-through of Subversion, I decided to side with the Institute, replacing Maxson with a synth and making sure to correctly have him reinstate me (also giving me Sentinel rank). This was supposed to keep me on allied terms with all of the factions, sort-of similar to what the Thuggy mods allowed. But something that wasn't explained in the Subversion description or walkthrough is that even after doing everything correctly, the BoS is still considered an "enemy" by the time you're done. They don't fire at me personally, and I'm still able to access the Prydwen and police station. They still refer to me as Sentinel. And I was able to get Danse's max affinity/perk and still keep him alive. But the BoS patrols will attack my settlements if they get too close, they will also attack the other factions (including the Minutemen). Checking my faction reputation, BoS is flagged as "enemy" and none of the console commands work to make them neutral/friendly/ally.

I was able to resurrect Maxson, and of course he instantly started shooting me. Through a mess of console commands and trying a dozen different things, I finally got him to stop trying to kill me. I was able to speak with him and get support to attack the Plaza, but that too was a mess. He was on the bridge of the Prydwen along with the Subversion-version of Maxson, and the vanilla Maxson was hostile to everyone. Again, a bunch of different console commands and multiple resurrections finally got everyone to stop shooting each other. I can now go to the Prydwen, where there's two Maxsons, and neither of them are shooting me or each other. So technically it should be ok if he's needed again for Under One Banner and the rest of Ch 3.

Another issue is that any BoS-aligned unique settlers, such as Charles Baker, are also hostile to everyone else. I had sent him to the Castle, only to later see him and the Minutemen all trying to kill each other. I had to send him off to his own remote settlement. I haven't recruited Monty yet on this game, so I have no idea if he too will start causing problems.

But the "enemy" flag with the BoS is just not working for me. It's causing so many problems all over the game, and I can't seem to find any way to fix it. Most likely, the final Quincy battle is going to turn into an all-out murder-fest. When using the Thuggy mods, the Institute would sometimes still get into skirmishes with the others, but not all the time. And during the Quincy battle, I don't recall seeing anyone other than Gunners shooting at the Institute forces. I didn't have the BoS available with the Thuggy mods, due to how those mods changed some things. But I guess technically I might still have been able to get a BoS alliance by simply enabling the vanilla Maxson? I didn't try it before, hadn't thought about it until reading some things about Subversion.

One other thing to note is that if using Subversion the "correct way" and siding with the Institute, you won't get the In Sheep's Clothing quest. That means Mayor McDonough is never removed, and The Ron is not able to take his place. Which means you will not be able to get Diamond City as an ally option without using the console command, which then toasts immersion because we know McDonough is still sitting in his office. But I was able to find a simple little mod on Nexus that allows you to complete In Sheep's Clothing even if you finished the game while siding with the Institute. McDonough was removed, I did not lose my reputation with the Institute, and that should flag The Ron for becoming mayor.


So in general, yes Subversion is "compatible" with SS2 and Chapter 3. But there are some major conflicts that I have not been able to find a fix for, namely the BoS being flagged as enemies. Sure, you can use the console commands to get all factions on your side, but their shooting at each other all the time just ruins immersion. And from what I've read, the Subversion mod team has no intentions to "fix" that problem. So unless someone else can figure out a way to keep the BoS from being flagged as enemies, it's going to cause issues with SS2 and the alliance options.

The unofficial guide did provide the console commands for alliances, and from what I've been reading across multiple posts/topics is that if you DO NOT finish Subversion mod, just get to the point in the game where you meet father and are still on allied terms with all factions. For example, do all BoS quests until you finish Blind Betrayal, but DO NOT SPEAK TO KELLS afterwards. Tactical Thinking will start, but as long as you don't speak to Kells, it'll be fine later. But before you get to that point, you can also do all of the Railroad quests through Underground Undercover to the point you're told to keep working with Father. For the Minutemen, you just have to finish Old Guns. And for the Institute, finish the directorate meeting in Mankind - Redefined which will automatically start Mass Fusion, but DO NOT speak to Allie. As long as you do all of that, you'll still be on "allied" terms with all 4 main factions and gone as far as you can without passing the "point of no return". And so far, you're still on "vanilla" terms, meaning the Subversion content hasn't even started yet. I guess that means you could also get to that point without Subversion mod being installed, as Subversion only affects what happens later.

So I would assume that's the perfect time to do SS2's Chapter 2 and 3. You'll still need to use console commands to get most of the factions as allies during Under One Banner because you won't have met the requirements for anyone except the Minutemen yet (and that's only because the SS team recently changed their requirement). You will not have turned the BoS hostile yet, so they won't be messing with your settlements. But I'm not sure what the end battle of Quincy would look like, because if you haven't finished the game yet then most of the factions will still be hostile towards each other.

If the Subversion mod team, or someone else, is able to find a fix for the BoS reputation problem then Subversion mod and only a few small patches or compatibility mods are needed, and everything would work great together without any immersion-breaking trash that mods like the Thuggy stuff adds. The biggest problem with Subversion and SS2 at this point (besides the BoS enemy flag) is the factions aren't neutral towards each other, which should be fixed. Trying to get all factions as allies and having them work with you without trying to kill each other in the process is quite important. The Thuggy mods mostly got that working ok (usually), but the Thuggy mods are getting on in age and definitely not designed with SS2 in mind. And I don't think it's worth the other problems that come with those mods.

If anyone does know how to fix some of the mentioned issues, feel free to post here about it. Or if you happen to know of a different alternate-ending mod that plays well with SS2 and allows you to keep the main factions as allies, post suggestions.
 
Ah Ha! I think I figured out how to fix one of the biggest problems brought about by Subversion mod. As stated above, one of the biggest headaches with Subversion is that even though you are supposed to be making all factions allied, their mod actually turns the BoS hostile towards your settlements and other factions. If you want to play SS2 Chapter 3 and have all factions as allies, which is the entire purpose of using Subversion, then you were SoL.

I use Cheat Terminal because it has some very useful options to fix various game problems like bugs. One of the options within Cheat Terminal is the ability to see and modify your reputation with all factions. Typically, that's something I don't mess with, as it can cause all kinds of problems if used incorrectly. After completing Subversion, I can see that the Institute, Railroad, and Minutemen are all listed as allies. But the BoS is listed as enemy. Trying to select Neutral, Friend, or Ally has no effect, the BoS is "locked" as an enemy. This causes them to attack the other factions, as well as your settlements. The BoS will even nuke your caravans.

So I started looking into it, hoping to find a solution. On the Nexus page for Subversion mod, others have made bug reports and various comments about the BoS being hostile as well. One person posted a link to a Steam discussion, Setting a Faction to Friendly [Console Commands], which was supposed to make the BoS allied to me. That command failed to work on its own, and I had almost given up hope.

Then I had an idea: Maybe the BoS being enemies with other factions was preventing them from being my ally? What if I create a .txt file that is ran using the console as a bat? I can make EVERY main faction allies with each other. So that's what I did, and it "mostly" worked. After running the bat, I used Cheat Terminal to check my faction reputations. The BoS was showing as "Neutral" now, and all other factions were still listed as allies. But the fact that the BoS was no longer flagged as "Enemy" means something was working. So I then used Cheat Terminal to change the BoS from "Neutral" to "Ally"...and it worked! Now all 4 main factions are listed as "Ally" to me.

And just to test it out, I went over to the airport and started tossing synth relay grenades all over the place. Gen 1's were spawning right next to BoS members, and nobody was turning hostile. Went to the RR HQ, tossed a few more, nobody turned hostile. Things went south at the Castle though. I tossed a couple synth relay grenades, and the settlers/MM started to shoot the synths and then turned hostile towards me. So I'll need to do a little more testing to see if I missed something.


The .txt file I just named "allies.txt" with the below contents:
setally 0001c21c 0005de41 1 1
setally 0001c21c 0005e558 1 1
setally 0001c21c 00068043 1 1
setally 0001c21c 000994f6 1 1
setally 0005de41 0005e558 1 1
setally 0005de41 00068043 1 1
setally 0005de41 000994f6 1 1
setally 0005e558 0005de41 1 1
setally 0005e558 00068043 1 1
setally 0005e558 000994f6 1 1
setally 00068043 0005de41 1 1
setally 00068043 0005e558 1 1
setally 00068043 000994f6 1 1
setally 000994f6 0005de41 1 1
setally 000994f6 0005e558 1 1
setally 000994f6 00068043 1 1

With a little more testing, this could be a solution for one of the major issues between Subversion and SS2.
 
Good work dood, with a bit more info it'd be possible to make a 'patch' micromod to change those values automatically (since not everyone is willing or able to do console/batchfile stuff).
Regarding MM hostility, is it possible your Relay Grenades landed right next to the feet of the ones who fired at you? I believe those technically do cause a damaging AOE when they activate, and even Ally NPCs can retaliate if 'you' hit them a few times.
 
Regarding MM hostility, is it possible your Relay Grenades landed right next to the feet of the ones who fired at you? I believe those technically do cause a damaging AOE when they activate, and even Ally NPCs can retaliate if 'you' hit them a few times.
Pretty sure that was the case. I reloaded the save, and instead of tossing a synth grenade I called in the BoS vertibird. It landed inside the castle without issue, and flew me to the CIT ruins. Once it dropped me off, I tossed a synth grenade far enough that the "blast" didn't hit the bird. Get this..as the BoS vertibird was flying away, raiders from the nearby barge started shooting the BoS vertibird. And the synths that were spawned with the nades sensed that their ally (BoS) was being shot at and ran over to start shooting the raiders. So I can confirm so far that it has actually made each faction an ally towards each other, not just towards the player.

One thing I should add: I had to use Cheat Terminal to move the BoS from "Neutral" to "Ally", those console commands alone didn't do it. I even tried moving around the order of the commands, with the player-BoS line at the very bottom. Still results in the BoS being neutral instead of ally. Cheat Terminal then allowed me to move BoS from neutral to ally, and all CT is doing is firing off a command. Once we know the exact command, then you'll have those pieces of the puzzle.

As for creating a patch mod, someone with script knowledge would need to address that. I'm guessing it's a matter of setting the main Subversion mod as a master, find the quest where synth Maxson takes you back into the BoS, and create a new function that calls those commands when the correct conditions are met? That quest has to be using some kind of trigger to make them refer to you as Sentinel, so that would be a good point to activate the ally commands. I'm just not sure how "simple" such a mod would be, and if it's compatible with console players.

But I would also caution anyone that wishes to attempt such a patch. You need to really check all of the Subversion quests, and make sure nothing else could conflict. To my knowledge, you actually become hostile with the BoS when you complete Mass Fusion for the Institute. The BoS will be hostile with you throughout the game after that, but once you've convinced synth Maxson to take you back in, you are supposed to be allied with them again. For some reason, you aren't getting the enemy tag removed (likely due to cross-faction reputations). So using this series of commands at that point seems like the best time. But I'm testing all of this after having fully completed the Subversion quests, and I can't confirm if something else along the way might flag the BoS as enemy again. I don't think anything else would, but safer to check.
 
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