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Allow headquarters to build itself, at least in part

SunniJB

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17
I feel like the unique selling point of SS (1 and 2) is that you can let your settlements build themselves. Like, "watch the wasteland rebuild organically, give your settlers the tools they need to care for themselves, get unique and impressive settlements without having to hand-place everything", that kinda thing.

And I find the initial gameplay of HQ to be really satisfying. I love cleaning up this place and seeing it slowly get better. But it requires a degree of management and hand-placement that the rest of the mod brags about getting rid off, and as a player that really enjoys just tipping the first domino and watching the magic happen (with some help in the form of resources), that felt pretty jarring.

It would be nice if HQ had some things that could be done without your input. Like how the settlement settings allow you to set the plots and city plans to auto-upgrade, maybe HQ could have settings like "automatically choose room type upon cleaning", "automatically assign staff based on SPECIAL stats" and "automatically assign unassigned staff to facilities"?

Like, I just got here, I have no idea if Women's Bathroom SE on the Office Floor should be an armor workshop or not. I don't even know what that does. And if I figure it out later and want to change it, I have to navigate the three labyrinths that are HQ and try to find the (often missable) plaque placed outside the door. If I can even remember which door it is, or find it in the overview.
 
hand placement? what game are you playing? you go into HQ, pick project to do a thing, drop the little "make do" worker-man-blue icon anywhere, and your people get to doing it. you pick the room and what plans it should have, and then go on walkabout till it's done. basically exactly what you are describing: "tipping the first domino and watching the magic happen". on my current play through, i delayed recruiting random settlers and building up the settlements themselves, and i spent a LOT more time building agriculture plots to catch those settlements up on food then i EVER spent on managing the HQ itself. getting every settlement a CPD plot has been a bigger project then getting living quarters built.

we've already talked a bit about automating personnel HERE, including sorting between departments, but i don't feel like that's a major hurdle of micromanagement like you are describing. it's strongly implied through the design of the psudovendors that there is a stat for each department, so all you have to do is find people in your settlement network to fill that role.

once you learn the basic layout (you might be interested in this map) navigating the HQ is a not a big deal at all.it's all arranged into floors and follows the same basic plan of big circle up front, little offices near the back.the utility basement is a bit of a mess, chalk that up to bethesda designing a dungeon, not an office complex, but most of those rooms have one purpose and one plan, so harder to screw up there in the first place. the room controllers certainly have some sharp edges, you never need to use them unless you need to change a room after it's started, and then it's basically the same as changing a plot type and building plan.

now the "floating over the deep" feeling of deciding if the "Women's Bathroom SE on the Office Floor should be an armor workshop" is certainly there, but i will tell you from experience it's an illusion. the systems of the HQ are really not that complicated, and you can totally just build everything as the defaults, and then go back and change it if and when you decide you care enough to adjust it. there is probably a good strong case for rewriting the dialog a bit to make it feel a bit more low-key "don't worry you won't be tested on this later" vibe, but i think that's just a matter of first impressions, not a flawed system.

HQ is a complicated system, but it's presented without consequence (even if you feel like you could mess it up the first time you look at it), and it permits you to explore as you want and manage a large company (relatively, for the size of the empire you are building) frictionlessly.
 
I am not going to write a whole screen length post telling you your opinion is wrong while missing your actual point; an equivalent to the "City Plan" mechanic for HQ is absolutely a good idea, got my vote.
My vote as well. I love to build settlements, though not the crampy HQ micromanagement stuff.
 
I am not going to write a whole screen length post telling you your opinion is wrong while missing your actual point; an equivalent to the "City Plan" mechanic for HQ is absolutely a good idea, got my vote.
well, that feels pointed.

i just really don't understand why there is a vocal minority of people have trouble with the HQ. i think it's great, it's complicated, sure, but it's also low risk and without deadline or threat, it's different enough to feel fresh, but based upon the ss2 mechanics and with analogous systems where it doesn't feel out of place, and most of the complaints are "i don't want <optional thing>" when it's optional.

am i really that far off the normal on this one?
 
well, that feels pointed.

i just really don't understand why there is a vocal minority of people have trouble with the HQ. i think it's great, it's complicated, sure, but it's also low risk and without deadline or threat, it's different enough to feel fresh, but based upon the ss2 mechanics and with analogous systems where it doesn't feel out of place, and most of the complaints are "i don't want <optional thing>" when it's optional.

am i really that far off the normal on this one?
The fact is, you have to at least do some of it to complete the questline, there's no way around it short of using the "Cheats" in the Holotape.
A non trivial number of people came to SimSettlements in the first place specifically due to the promise of "fire and forget" "no more manually building settlements" systems best exemplified by the "City Plan" mechanic - this was the first detail mentioned on the Nexus page for SS1, and makes up a large portion of the non-Story-specific 'marketing material' even for 2 after all - which has attracted an additional new 'subtype' of player who doesn't care about the settlement building stuff AT ALL and only want more of the storyline. And to have been able to use that and nothing else for the entirety of the questline (which, remember, you can get up to HQ without having ever built ANYTHING other than what those early couple of tutorials demand, thus never been made to learn how all the systems work), then to HAVE to do things in a very precise linear way, goes contrary to how people who prefer that playstyle (where you can automate away effectively everything else) have enjoyed the mod to that point.

tl;dr can automate away every other system, why not this one too?
 
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[...] which has attracted an additional new 'subtype' of player who doesn't care about the settlement building stuff AT ALL [...]
i think this might be a very relevant demographic, and your analysis on the "marketing material" might dead on as the reason for it. settlement building is a very core part of Fallout 4. this may have been poorly planned on bethesda's part, and it shows in how much effort they put into rewarding people for it. the vanilla story line quests usually resort to punishing you for not doing enough, rather then incentivizing.

i will freely admit i have very strong opinions about sim settlements. i downloaded the original mod YEARS ago as an easier way to frame out the city i wanted rather then faffing with beds and walls and such. but on the other hand, i don't use city plans outside the one tutorial quest, which i usually skip to the end right about the point where they ask you to actually select the city plan. maybe i am the perfect demographic to fail to understand this "make it go away" feeling for the HQ, because i don't understand the "make it go away" feeling for settlements.

i just cannot fathom someone downloading and installing a mod where you actively don't care about half of the headline title.

Edit: i went and checked. my first download of Sim Settlements was 14 Jun 2017, more then 5 years ago.... that's depressing.
 
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settlement building is a very core part of Fallout 4. this may have been poorly planned on bethesda's part, and it shows in how much effort they put into rewarding people for it. the vanilla story line quests usually resort to punishing you for not doing enough, rather then incentivizing.
Simple fact is, if you don't go the Minutemen path, you only have to even look at the settlement mechanics once, maybe twice - and even if you do, there isn't exactly much reason to build more than the minimum. Plus, the whole another settlement needs your help thing didn't become a meme for no reason.

i just cannot fathom someone downloading and installing a mod where you actively don't care about half of the headline title.
The 'marketing' for SS2 in particular has focused VERY heavily on the storyline to the level of all but ignoring the settlement mechanics (and when settlements ARE shown, it almost invariably shows a City Plan and not manual builds), and the mechanical structure of most of the questline doesn't exactly disavow that notion - I keep on bringing this up, but how much of what you do in your settlements affects SS2's questline in any way whatsoever? Outside of the early "build X of plot type Y" quest objectives, practically not at all - you can just throw some City Plans around and still not have to actually build anything yourself, so it's quite easy to figure that the whole mechanical aspect of the mod is ignorable, or at least "do as much or as little as you want".
And then you hit HQ, and you're suddenly required to do what amounts to manually building Home+Job Plots for a settlement of ~50 people, without even the ability to choose where you put the plots, and with a system that only KIND OF works like the vanilla build system - while getting told it's "more" flexible and player-freeing than building one object and leaving for a week only to come back to a fully built settlement.
 
[...]Outside of the early "build X of plot type Y" quest objectives, practically not at all[...]
i mean, by that metric, you don't engage with gen 3 synths that much either. there's like one quest to hunt one down in libertalia, plus some backstory and dialog on them, so unless you follow curie's loyalty quest you can go the whole game without engaging them very much at all.

as much as you think i am missing the point, you are going a long way out of your way to permit people to do just that in order to validate their criticism.
[...]the whole mechanical aspect of the mod is ignorable, or at least "do as much or as little as you want".[...]
yes! this is exactly the sentiment i want people to attach to the HQ, just as they attach it to the fiddly details of optimizing special stats against plot efficiency. there is a ZEN to this style of play, but it takes a little bit of familiarity, confidence, and trust. we have 4+ years of that with plots, and i certainly had trouble on my first play through of chapter 2 getting to this headspace. a lot of people who are complaining about the HQ would be WAY happier if this is the model they used to engage with it.

just because a system EXISTS doesn't mean you need to optimize it.

on this subject, i will absolutely agree with you that the storyline of chapter 3 needs to continue from the ending of "doctor in the house" or possibly as far back as the start of the recruit 15 objective of "how to HQ" rather then all the way at the end of "Commonwealth Rising" in order to let those people who want to bypass HQ the ability to "do as much or as little as [they] want".
edit: spelling
 
just because a system EXISTS doesn't mean you need to optimize it.
And yet, there is no indication that you don't need to - if anything, the structure of "Commonwealth Rising" in particular makes it seem like you HAVE to, or at least it appears that way if you aren't the kind of person that likes complex systems.

I'll sum it up nice and simple: Why is HQ the only system in the mod that there's no way to "opt out" of it, at least not without missing quest content? For someone that is always saying more options would be nice, why are you so opposed to making this be one in particular?

Let me try this another way: what would it actually remove from the gameplay to take out the player giving the orders to clean each room, considering for the vast majority of the HQ the only "player agency" is which order to make them?
 
And yet, there is no indication that you don't need to - if anything, the structure of "Commonwealth Rising" in particular makes it seem like you HAVE to, or at least it appears that way if you aren't the kind of person that likes complex systems.

I'll sum it up nice and simple: Why is HQ the only system in the mod that there's no way to "opt out" of it, at least not without missing quest content? For someone that is always saying more options would be nice, why are you so opposed to making this be one in particular?
no, i agree. which is why i think the quest content should let you. right now there's nothing past HQ to miss if you stop doing it. it is effectively optional. that should continue

this might change with Chapter 3, which is why i am arguing for the content continuing at "the end of the tutorial bit"; either the end of Doctor in the house or the recruit 15 objective for How to HQ.
Let me try this another way: what would it actually remove from the gameplay to take out the player giving the orders to clean each room, considering for the vast majority of the HQ the only "player agency" is which order to make them?
it would remove the HQ, which is already optional.

i mean that in the most literal sense. you're absolutely right, the only interaction with the HQ is ordering stuff get done. the city plan is a VERY instructive analog. City plans outsource the design and running of a city to an AI Mayor, effectively removing that settlement from your concerns. doing the same with the HQ, having it direct itself like a city plan, would mean it is nothing more then another world repopulation space like concord. no one could argue you are "in charge" of concord in the same way you are in charge of starlight drive-in. that dyllan and alyssa "report to you" in the way that settlers and your HQ staff do.
 
I give up, it's not worth any more of my mental energy to try to explain something to someone that refuses to understand people might not all like the same things.
 
I give up, it's not worth any more of my mental energy to try to explain something to someone that refuses to understand people might not all like the same things.
it's already optional? you don't like it you don't have to do it? i am arguing in favor of it staying optional?

i really am missing something if THIS is the point that's frustrating to you about my line of reasoning.
 
If we talk about when downloaded Sim Settlements.... I can only see Sim Settlements - Builder's Toolkit - downloaded 18 March 2017, 11:19 am , so the first download of Sim Settlement might be earlier then that .. That's a long time ago indeed. Anyway;

I do not use city plans besides the mandatory one. ( try to keep the game stable workable). I prefer to build many smaller outposts and a few real Settlements and that's get the Job done. I design the city layout and place the plots how I want them and what I want in them. I like that part, then I watch how it all develops, get trade routes and have a great amount of outposts all connected. So yes I love the Settlement System and I use it.

With the gunners out of the way and my own Minutemen Army combined with what's left of the main other factions there is not really a need for a cramped HQ besides as a nice bait for attackers. I have an army that can protect the areas that are under my protection,
((Two game mission mechanics are irritating the "another settlement needs your help" missions and the "a settlement is under attack" missions, while the last one is just idiotic when there is enough defense in a settlement to blow everything away. (jump to the place , watch all just get killed, get the mission successful message and jumps out). ))

Now I have to micromanage and assign people to things where I would expect I have people for. let Aiden do the defense jobs setups, We have a vault specialist that could just setup logistics and we have a tech engineer as well in our team. Why should I have to do that manually and also tell them what rooms to clean, come on.. just get those rooms cleans and build what is needed. It might be that it is due to the layout of the building and I do understand that story wise it might be a great place, though I wish I could skip it and have it build by a press of a button. And yes at the moment I am just building more settlements and doing any thing and use the cheat part to go to the "moving day" quest , that is where SS2 stops at the moment for me.

The HQ is a bit of the place where everything is gathering, stored and so on and the recruit people and so, I am not going to remove valuable people from my settlements to place them in a deathtrap called HQ. And to be able to finish the story you have to do the HQ and I fear that it is also mandatory for Act III.
For those that love the HQ work , great , there ahs been put a lot of effort in it to make it a great playing part of the story, nothing wrong with that.

My home/headquarters is the Taffington boathouse with a repaired roof, (love waht VilanceD did with the clean and remodeling pack) a small work force is present and there is my bed/living/req room, my storage place for all the collectables, my workshop and also the communications tower that should attract the special visitors. So I do not need/want a HQ small room or anything.

Lots of rambling :P and at last.

If I would be aligned with the institute .. Do I really need a HQ there ? or do you think I would have a better place to call HQ ?

And SarahAda it might be the somewhat sarcasm / cynical from the height way of typing you use that might trigger certain reactions. That you seem to play more than others, that you know more than other, it might not be the case and also not your meaning , though they way of reaction might implicate it. On a forum the way of talking and its meaning differs from the writing itself. Its a common thing that we all encounter and that you have a lot less face to face.

And optional means that you can end a story with its conclusion without the need of an certain option, like you can destroy the railroad as its optional for the attack on the Gunners HQ, you do not need them. At the moment to get the end of ACTII you need HQ.
 
And SarahAda it might be the somewhat sarcasm / cynical from the height way of typing you use that might trigger certain reactions. That you seem to play more than others, that you know more than other, it might not be the case and also not your meaning , though they way of reaction might implicate it. On a forum the way of talking and its meaning differs from the writing itself. Its a common thing that we all encounter and that you have a lot less face to face.
no, i get this professionally too. i have to very carefully watch my phrasing at work, because more then once i have said "it probably works this way", by which i mean "i THINK this is how this works, based on analogy and rumor, but i have like 15 minutes looking at it, so ???" and that has been repeated to others as "This is the way it works" which then is repeated third hand as "THIS IS THE WAY IT WORKS" and by the time everyone gets done with it there is a line of documentation in the offical manual to the effect of "the holy way is thus. murder all heretics who doubt".
 
no, i get this professionally too. i have to very carefully watch my phrasing at work, because more then once i have said "it probably works this way", by which i mean "i THINK this is how this works, based on analogy and rumor, but i have like 15 minutes looking at it, so ???" and that has been repeated to others as "This is the way it works" which then is repeated third hand as "THIS IS THE WAY IT WORKS" and by the time everyone gets done with it there is a line of documentation in the offical manual to the effect of "the holy way is thus. murder all heretics who doubt".
I'd call that a success! Unless no one has a clue what they're talking about anymore but are convinced that it's the only true holy way. Then it might become a problem.
 
I feel like the unique selling point of SS (1 and 2) is that you can let your settlements build themselves. Like, "watch the wasteland rebuild organically, give your settlers the tools they need to care for themselves, get unique and impressive settlements without having to hand-place everything", that kinda thing.

And I find the initial gameplay of HQ to be really satisfying. I love cleaning up this place and seeing it slowly get better. But it requires a degree of management and hand-placement that the rest of the mod brags about getting rid off, and as a player that really enjoys just tipping the first domino and watching the magic happen (with some help in the form of resources), that felt pretty jarring.

It would be nice if HQ had some things that could be done without your input. Like how the settlement settings allow you to set the plots and city plans to auto-upgrade, maybe HQ could have settings like "automatically choose room type upon cleaning", "automatically assign staff based on SPECIAL stats" and "automatically assign unassigned staff to facilities"?

Like, I just got here, I have no idea if Women's Bathroom SE on the Office Floor should be an armor workshop or not. I don't even know what that does. And if I figure it out later and want to change it, I have to navigate the three labyrinths that are HQ and try to find the (often missable) plaque placed outside the door. If I can even remember which door it is, or find it in the overview.
I know I changed my mind on this at least once yesterday but you know what, this is the way.
Settlers you just recruited DO go to facilities by default but other than that, support.
Unrelated but we need Avina from Mass Effect to stand in the middle of the atrium and give directions to anyone who's lost.
 
I know I changed my mind on this at least once yesterday but you know what, this is the way.
Settlers you just recruited DO go to facilities by default but other than that, support.
Unrelated but we need Avina from Mass Effect to stand in the middle of the atrium and give directions to anyone who's lost.
That would be helpful!
Early on I tried to group my rooms together so I could find them easier--like, all living quarters over here, all head offices over here, all head private quarters over here--but that became difficult as I unlocked more rooms and space. Sometimes two rooms that both start with "upper balcony" would be on different sides of the building, but usually they would just be named like "Lower SW Nook" and I'd have no idea what other rooms that is next to. I have no clue where anything is now.

And when I first found HQ I tried going to look at all my newly built or cleaned rooms, but I couldn't find it an the in-game map doesn't help much. It's a shame because I have completely stopped trying to wander around HQ and watch things change, which is my favorite part of sim settlements. I really wish you could track rooms the way you can track settlers. Or have a big map hanging in the main hall, and I could select one and there would be a VANS-like guide on the floor to take me to it.

Also, I didn't know unassigned workers were supposed to be assigned to facilities by default. That isn't happening for me. I frequently have npcs just listed as "unassigned" and I have to put them in facilities myself.
 
I really wish you could track rooms the way you can track settlers.
You kinda can, go to command mode and pick hq layout, then the floor and the room. You'll get a marker leading to it.
Or have a big map hanging in the main hall, and I could select one and there would be a VANS-like guide on the floor to take me to it.
This would be nice. The one time VANS would be helpful!
There are already really good maps on the wiki, without the built rooms but still.
You can also get some pointing signs as decorations but they're fairly limited. I wish those were expanded. Staff meeting room, power room, hvac, water room, comm array room, cafeteria, bars and recreation areas are always in the same place. And the other could probably be coded to show "bathrooms" or "living quarters" ("gym" or "library" etc) depending on what is built.
 
Also, I didn't know unassigned workers were supposed to be assigned to facilities by default. That isn't happening for me. I frequently have npcs just listed as "unassigned" and I have to put them in facilities myself.
I just recruit them and they sit in facilities until reassigned. If you take them from facilities but don't assign anywhere else, then yes. At least that's how it's supposed to work. On xbox I had a lot of troubles reassigning people, often they'd just get unassigned and that's it.
There might be more addons for HQ in the future, which is I'm assuming the big reason we pick what to build in every room. Right now there's not enough options so it might as well choose for us in most cases, nothing would be lost. Even though there's still the "recruit 15 settlers" objective that I hate and that forces you to build a shit ton of living quarters just about everywhere and preferably big ones. Before you can even do the next quest and get some cooler stuff unlocked and going. Why 15? Why not 10 or 42?
 
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