the Sim Settlements forums!

Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!

Discussion Understanding CTDs - Triangle of Death

This! It occurred to me recently how immersion breaking the settlement system is vis a vis the main story, if you take it to OCD extremes like (probably) many fans of SS have. In my first playthrough I took a casual 4 year in game break from looking for my son to rescue kidnapped settlers, scrap trees, build fortifications, hoard combat armour and make sure all of my settlers had colonial hats. Not a single prompt from any NPC or from the game itself to return to the main storyline... SS, IR and ROTC just make that outcome even more likely.

I think the problem is that after a while, you run into the fact that there just isn't a great deal of point in building and maintaining a large settlement network. You just end up drowning in resources and caps, and get tired of collecting taxes and defending settlements. This is much worse if you're playing on survival mode and not using a fast travel mod. I remember my partner telling me to turn the speakers off cos he was sick of hearing the Vertibird sound effects, lol.

I found ROTC made it even less satisfying for me. Apart from the fact that I didn't know all the info contained in this thread and made some stupid decisions that killed a save I'd put 100's of hours into, once the settlements had maxed out and I'd had a good look at how incredible they were, suddenly I was bored and there didn't seem to be any point to it. Turns out the actual building of them was most of the fun.

I find myself wishing there was more quest and role playing content associated with the settlements and better mechanics that gave them more purpose. Like a DLC sized quest line that was more involved than just establishing and defending. I'm playing on an old low end rig with no hope of getting a better one for the next while, so my solution is to have a few big cities, one in each region so I have somewhere to sleep and get purified water, and I enjoy RaiderOverhaul and SKKSettlementAttack so got those going to have the odd brutal war to wade into. I've found that I get CTD's more often with levelled residential plots, especially the interior plots so I just use normal beds and agricultural and industrial plots for their goodies. So far on my latest playthrough this strategy has worked well, got moderate sized cities at all the spots in the Triangle of Death and it's working OK.

This feels like something I should already know, but what happens if you do the quests to unlock settlements, and then just leave them and don't build a beacon? This playthrough I'm just not going to bother with most of them.
Everything said is true but is that such a bad thing? Following the settlement system with Sim Settlements installed provides as much playtime as just following the quest to save Shaun. In fact many find the drive to find your son not as interesting as the rest of the quest and the plain exploring. Not to mention you can have more than one playthrough and play each one completely different.

I also understand the crash issues on a play through with several hundred hours. Luckily I was able to save one of mine by giving up on one particular settlement after using tools and procedures here to destroy that settlement.

Overall I think SS adds immensly to FO4.
 
Last edited:
Can the OP be updated with a list of settlement combos that aren't a good idea with RotC? Unless there is an easy way to see which settlements shouldn't be built up with this mod? Triangle of Death is a given, and apparently The Castle/SS/Warwick... but there are others, right?
 
Very informative article, thanks for posting! I wish I had known about this when I started my second play of Fallout 4 a couple of months ago. As it turns out I have all 3 of these settlements under City Planner RotC and I've finding I sometimes crash when I approach Santuary. At this point in the game, besides removing the mod, is there a mechanism within RotC that resets a settlement to scratch? I'd be more than willing to reset Red Rocket to see if that would help, if there is an easy way to do that. I love the development of Abernathy farm, so I'd be more reluctant to reset that one, but would consider it, if it would lesson crashes in the vicinity of Santuary.
Thanks!
 
Very informative article, thanks for posting! I wish I had known about this when I started my second play of Fallout 4 a couple of months ago. As it turns out I have all 3 of these settlements under City Planner RotC and I've finding I sometimes crash when I approach Santuary. At this point in the game, besides removing the mod, is there a mechanism within RotC that resets a settlement to scratch? I'd be more than willing to reset Red Rocket to see if that would help, if there is an easy way to do that. I love the development of Abernathy farm, so I'd be more reluctant to reset that one, but would consider it, if it would lesson crashes in the vicinity of Santuary.
Thanks!
Craft yourself a Town Gavel at the Chemistry station and use it within one of the settlements. It should raze it to the ground.

You can then build a smaller settlement of your own, send the settlers to other settlements that might need it, or a combo of both.
 
Craft yourself a Town Gavel at the Chemistry station and use it within one of the settlements. It should raze it to the ground.

You can then build a smaller settlement of your own, send the settlers to other settlements that might need it, or a combo of both.
Thank you. I’ll be nuking Red Rocket which I always thought was a worthless settlement anyway. ;) More questions may follow.
 
Brute force helps to a degree. I have no problem with reasonable plans in RR, Sanctuary, Abernathy.

Shouldn't Slog, Finch, Greentop, C.Crossing also be mentioned as rectangle of death?
I had more ctd in that area than in the known triangle of death.
 
Well Guys, I've screwed up. This is my second time through Fallout 4, but first time with Sim Settlements/Rise of the Commonwealth. In the vicinity of Santuary, Red Rocket, and Abernathy Farm, I started getiing the crashes describe. I was fortunate enough to be able to walk into Red Rocket and trash the settlement using the Town Gavel. Both Santuary and Abernathy Farm had the RoTC Settlements going.

So then I got complacent and I started my own build in Red Rocket, but I added a couple of Sim Settlement Plots, 2 of them. At some point I noticed that I could no longer get into Red Rocket because of crashes. So I also trashed Abernathy Farm to try to resolve the problem at Red Rocket, but this did not fix it. Approaching or Fast Traveling into Red Rocket results in a crash to desktop.

In the big schema of things, I can keep playing and finish up my quests and such, but it would be nice to be able to just walk through Red Rocket but at this point, it's not important to my game. However, I am concerned when I get to the point, I'm building a teleporter if I do this in Santuary, it might exacerbate the issue. The last thing I want are crashes in Santuary. Does the teleporter to get into the institute have to be built in Santuary?

Any suggestions for me as a means of correcting the problem other than rolling back the game?
Thanks!
 
The teleporter can be built in any settlement. If you’re doing a Minutemen playthrough then Sturges will head over to whichever place you choose.

If the remote detonation option doesn’t work, you could try the other thread to help recover your game. Remember to take a copy of your game first.
 
The teleporter can be built in any settlement. If you’re doing a Minutemen playthrough then Sturges will head over to whichever place you choose.

If the remote detonation option doesn’t work, you could try the other thread to help recover your game. Remember to take a copy of your game first.

The thing is that I don't have a full RotC Settlement going on at Red Rocket, just placed two Sim Settlement plots there. Will remote detonation work in that case?
Thanks!
 
The thing is that I don't have a full RotC Settlement going on at Red Rocket, just placed two Sim Settlement plots there. Will remote detonation work in that case?
Thanks!

it has been a long while but yes. It should work.
 
it has been a long while but yes. It should work.

Guys, this worked like a charm, I'm so happy! :D I just had to do the first step.
https://simsettlements.com/site/ind...-recovering-a-problem-settlement-part-1.7125/

At this point I will be content to keep Santuary as a full blown RotC settlement, while for Abernathy Farm (even though I never had issues with AF) and Red Rocket I'll just put my own stuff into those settlements. Hopefully this problem won't rear up again.

Can that be an issue when building with vanilla F4 building pieces putting undue stress on the game next to an RotC development? Thanks!
 
Even building in vanilla, you can cause issues in the triangle. I read somewhere (probably here) the game tries to load all 3 settlements at once, or something to that effect.
 
Even building in vanilla, you can cause issues in the triangle. I read somewhere (probably here) the game tries to load all 3 settlements at once, or something to that effect.

Maybe they thought it would be a novelty after those 3 and not do anymore?
 
There have been significant strides, on my end, in the triangle of death with the last 2 updates. The new RoTC compact city plans and whatever else is going on with the new updates has reduced my ctds to almost none.
I’m currently running RoTC plans fully upgraded on all 3 settlements in the triangle of death, and full retexture mods. My pc is solid but nothing extreme. I feel like there is a lot of hope for the future, SS just keeps getting better and better!
 
There have been significant strides, on my end, in the triangle of death with the last 2 updates. The new RoTC compact city plans and whatever else is going on with the new updates has reduced my ctds to almost none.
I’m currently running RoTC plans fully upgraded on all 3 settlements in the triangle of death, and full retexture mods. My pc is solid but nothing extreme. I feel like there is a lot of hope for the future, SS just keeps getting better and better!
Interesting, I rebuilt my PC in March with all of the latest bells and whistles, 32GB RAM, 8GB Geforce 2070 Video Card and still had the ToD problem with two RotC Settlement (Santuary and Abernathy Farm), and 2 SS plots sitting in Red Rocket.

Now it may not help the ToD issue, that I also had added the Santuary Hot Springs mod ( great mod btw) which places a very small settlement on the lake shore near Santuary, but to fix the issue, I had to nuke both Abernathy Farm and the SS plots in Red Rocket.

I'm near the end game, and am happy that I still have the fully developed Santuary RotC, and Santuary Hot Springs. I also have several other RotC settlements scattered about, one at the Drive In, the Mechanics Lair (which my impression puts minimal load on the game cause it's underground), The Castle and Green Top Nursery.
 
So I think I may have discovered some things about precombined geometry. That is, the precombines are not actually all that important.

TL;DR: The precombines are important, and on low end systems like the Xbox One they are vital to keeping the game running, particularly in downtown Boston. However, it's the occlusion culling that is really doing most of the work. The reason everyone thinks precombines are so important is that a side-effect of disabling them is that the occlusion planes are removed. However, if you replace the occlusion planes in cells with broken precombines, that will restore most of the lost performance.

There is a mod exclusively available for the Xbox One called Scrap That Settlement. It allows the player to scrap almost all objects inside settlement borders besides larger structures and buildings. For example, in Sanctuary Hills, all the trash, leaves, and shrubs, as well as light fixtures and furniture can be scrapped. However, the structure of the houses, such as the walls, roofs, and car ports, as well as the foundations, roads, and sidewalks, cannot be scrapped. The authors of STS make the provocative claim that the mod is light on performance and does not break the precombined geometry. Moreover, STS covers every vanilla settlement in the game for only a few megabytes, so it clearly does not separate out the scrappable objects and rebuild precombines—a mod that rebuilt the precombined geometry for every settlement would be hundreds of megabytes. The claims of STS’s authors have caused quite a stir because they appear to be patently impossible, and so many heated arguments and much acrimony have followed.

I can confirm that STS works. You can scrap most objects in settlements, and yet it is lightweight on performance. For example, I used a base Xbox One and Rise of the Commonwealth to build city plans up to level 3 in Sanctuary Hills, Red Rocket TruckStop, and Abernathy Farm—the fabled “triangle of death”—with all performance options, such as clutter, animations, and other effects enabled. I considered this a severe stress test, and I did it first without STS installed. Performance was significantly impacted, often dropping into the 20 fps range, and there were frequent loading hitches and stutters when crossing cell boundaries. However, I was able to move between all 3 settlements without the game crashing. Then I installed STS. I can confirm that it barely effects performance at all, and after I spent some time scrapping the trash and shrubs around each settlement, performance may have even marginally improved.

After a bunch of hypothesis testing, I think I’ve finally discovered what STS is actually doing. The mod authors are being misleading when they claim that STS does not break the precombined geometry, because what they are actually doing is restoring the occlusion culling that is normally lost when precombines are disabled. It turns out that, for performance, the occlusion culling is doing most of the heavy lifting. If you use the CK to replace the occlusion planes in cells with broken precombines, the impact to performance is significantly reduced. It appears STS disables precombined geometry for all cells that intersect with settlement borders, replaces occlusion planes in the large structures and buildings, unlinks those structures from the workshop so they cannot be interacted with, and then adds scrapping recipes for everything else. The end result is a scrap mod that is lightweight on performance.

To further test the performance impact of manually placed occlusion planes in cells with broken precombines, XV-Versus made a experimental version of his Mystic Pines Retirement Home settlement mod. He disabled precombines around Mystic Pines and then manually placed some occlusion planes. Using an Xbox One X and the Cheat Terminal mod, I began spawning dozens of settlers and building 100s of objects until my console could no longer maintain its 30fps target when looking toward the retirement home. However, by simply sidestepping behind an occlusion plane, performance was immediately restored to normal. Manually added occlusion planes can definitely provide a major improvement to performance.

There is an ocassional bug that occurs in Sanctuary Hills when STS is installed where one or more of the homes fails to load in. Forcing the cell to unload from memory by leaving the area and then returning will restore the missing homes, but stepping into the space where the homes should be is very enlightening. The occlusion planes remain, and so as you walk around the space where the homes should be, you can watch objects and geometry disappear as they move behind where the walls should be. Precombined geometry is clearly broken, since individual objects, and individual parts of structures, all disappear and reappear independently. Notably, objects built by the player in workshop mode, including objects placed by Sim Settlements plots and city plans, are also properly culled by the occlusion plane.

Presumably, performance in settlements, with or without STS, is at least partly dependent on how the settlement is designed. For example, the city plan for Sanctuary included in RotC is probably bad for performance, because it concentrates most of its objects in the center of the settlement, uses relatively few of the houses, and builds a lot of structures above the occlusion planes. A design which maximized performance would avoid building above the existing houses, would spread more evenly through the settlement, and make more use of each house. This way, you could maximize the number of objects subject to occlusion culling at any moment, enabling you to have a greater number of objects in total.

STS has a sister mod called Scrap That Commonwealth. It is very much like STS, but applies to the entire commonwealth rather than just settlements. When coupled with the Build Anywhere mod, by the same authors, that enables you to spawn a workbench anywhere in the Commonwealth and establish a temporary workshop, STC allows you to scrap anything and build anywhere. Precombined geometry is broken for every cell, but once again occlusion culling has been restored. While you can scrap whole buildings and streets with STC, it's not necessarily advisible unless you plan to replace thems with something else to hide the occlusion planes.

STC reveals both the power and limits of using occlusion planes without precombines. Another popular mod that disables precombines across much of the Commonwealth is Chucksteel's Beantown Interiors. In particular, it disables precombines in most of the cells around Concord. When testing Beantown Interiors, I noticed a decline in performance when approaching Concord. However, when approaching Concord with STC installed, despite all precombines being broken, the framerate never skipped a beat. I believe Chucksteel could significantly improve the performance of BI by replacing occlusion planes lost when disabling precombines. The real test of STC, however, is downtown Boston, and it is here where the missing precombines just prove too much for the console to handle. That downtown runs at all with no precombines on a base Xbox One is surprising, but it is not without constant stutters and hitching, a framerate consistently in the low 20s, and the occasional crash.

Disclaimer: This entire post is highly speculative.
 
Last edited:
Presumably, performance in settlements, with or without STS, is at least partly dependent on how the settlement is designed. For example, the city plan for Sanctuary included in RotC is probably bad for performance, because it concentrates most of its objects in the center of the settlement, uses relatively few of the houses, and builds a lot of structures above the occlusion planes. A design which maximized performance would avoid building above the existing houses, would spread more evenly through the settlement, and make more use of each house. This way, you could maximize the number of objects subject to occlusion culling at any moment, enabling you to have a greater number of objects in total.

Meaty!
 
I am assuming here that the vanilla game has occlusion planes in the walls of the Sanctury houses in approximately the same configuration as STS. I know where STS has occlusion planes because of the missing house glitch, but I'm not sure about the vanilla game.

Since we cannot place our own occlusion planes in game, and neither can they be placed by city plans using scripts, a clever design might try to use the occlusion planes that already exist in the settlement to improve performance.
 
We can certainly check that out in the CK.
 
Top