Crash during or shortly after city building

[Ollie]

Hello Kinggath! First I just want to say I love your mod, and I consider it a must-have for any playthrough.
However, I can't fully enjoy the game because of the constant crashes. It happens when I'm near or in a settlement, especially when I fast travel to a settlement, now I know there is a workaround by walking to it slowly, and it does help. (or just avoid going to settlements completely, but that defeats the purpose of the mod)

But whenever I build a new city, the game would almost always freeze during the floating camera phase, or a few minutes after that, regardless of what I do. At the beginning of my playthrough it takes about 3 tries to get one build without crashing, but now this happens to me at every settlement, including the DLC settlements, which have no existing sim settlements nearby.

I would very much like to see the new settlements added by you and your colleagues in the Rise of Far Harbour, and I hope you can help me figure this out.
My GPU is GTX 960 and the RAM is 16GB.

Here is my load order:
GameMode=Fallout4

Fallout4.esm=1
DLCRobot.esm=1
DLCworkshop01.esm=1
DLCCoast.esm=1
DLCworkshop02.esm=1
DLCworkshop03.esm=1
DLCNukaWorld.esm=1
SimSettlements.esm=1
Homemaker.esm=1
SettlementKeywords.esm=1
ArmorKeywords.esm=1
XDI.esm=1
HUDFramework.esm=1
ACS Master.esm=1
NAC.esm=1
Unofficial Fallout 4 Patch.esp=1
Better Manufacturing.esp=1
NewCalibers.esp=1
TheKite_Railroad_Handmaiden.esp=1
CROSS_CourserStrigidae.esp=1
ManufacturingExtended.esp=1
VegetableStarchBuilder.esp=1
CBBE.esp=1

Crafting Workbench.esp=1

Crafting Workbenches - Automatron DLC.esp=1
Crafting Workbenches - Faction and Quest Requirements.esp=1
SK_Leaders1.esp=1
CWSS Redux.esp=1
Better Manufacturing - Valdacil Patch.esp=1

WorkshopHelmetBuilder_Poh.esp=1
Immersive HUD.esp=1
ValdacilsItemSorting-00-ValsPicks-DLCVersion-VanillaWeight.esp=1
VIS-PatchChemRedux.esp=0
Faster Terminal Displays (20x).esp=1
SarcasticLoadingScreens.esp=1
LooksMenu.esp=1
LooksMenu Customization Compendium.esp=1
LMBTOverlays.esp=1
KSHairdos.esp=1
PinUpRedLipstick LMCC.esp=1
KSHairdos_oel.esp=1
PlayerHeadTracking.esp=1

ACS Paintings.esp=1
ABP Paintings.esp=1
ImmersiveGunnersPlaza.esp=1
GunnersPlazaInterior.esp=1
CourserCrusher.esp=1
Mama Murphy.esp=1
FlirtyCommonwealth.esp=1
MilitarizedMinutemen.esp=1
SKKSettlersNeedStimpaks.esp=1
Pack Attack.esp=1
FO4 NPCs Travel.esp=1
Move (Get Out the Way).esp=1
Pack Attack NPC.esp=1
EveryonesBestFriend.esp=1
Raider Children.esp=1
Orphans.esp=1
RaiderOverhaul.esp=1
GlowingSeaEXPANDED.esp=1
MK_Agony.esp=1
MK_Agony_VIS Patch.esp=1
jags78_AgonyFix.esp=1
SurvivalOptions.esp=1
Realistic Movement Speed.esp=1
GetDirty.esp=1

Be Exceptional.esp=1


Molerat_Disease_Immunity_PA_Hazmat.esp=1
VisibleWeapons.esp=1
Journey.esp=1
AdrenalineRush.esp=1
Adrenaline Rush - VIS Patch.esp=1
Live Dismemberment - Brutal.esp=1

RestorePAFrames.esp=1
Killable Children.esp=1
Crippled limbs fix.esp=1
Sneaky Kills.esp=1
LureEnemies.esp=1
Splinterz.esp=1

TrainBar.esp=1
Better Settlement Defence.esp=1
155mm Howitzer M1.esp=1
OWR.esp=1
OWR_CraftableDecor.esp=1
OWR_CraftableDecor_CW.esp=1
OWR_CraftableDecor_SKPatch.esp=1
OWR2.esp=1
OWR2_CraftableDecor.esp=1
OWR2_CraftableDecor_CW.esp=1
OWR2_CraftableDecor_CW_SKPatch.esp=1
OWR2_CraftableDecor_SKPatch.esp=1
OWR2_SKEPatch.esp=1
WRVR.esp=1
CrimeTown.esp=1
Cait New Look_New Hair.esp=1

Deeper Thoughts (Curie).esp=1
Fahrenheit Facemorph.esp=1
CurieFix.esp=1
CompanionsGoHome_A.esp=1
ellen.esp=1
Deeper Thoughts - Expressive Curie.esp=1
llamaCompanionHeather.esp=1
Armorsmith Extended.esp=1
Armorsmith All DLCs Patch.esp=1
llamaCompanionHeather-VIS-AE Patch.esp=1
Eli_Armour_Compendium.esp=1
DX_Black_Widow.esp=1
ChineseStealthSuit.esp=1
PowerAmorOverhaul - ALL DLC.esp=0
Tactical Flashlights.esp=1
Tactical Flashlights - Settings.esp=1
DX_Banshee_Recon_Armor.esp=1
TheKite_Railroad_Handmaiden AE patch.esp=1
Crimsomrider's 1950s Feminine Outfits.esp=1
hunterset.esp=1
Hellfirenew.esp=1
EnclaveX02.esp=1
LocationBasedPowerArmor.esp=1
zgclabscientist.esp=1
Backpacks of the Commonwealth.esp=1
3dscopes-framework.esp=1
3dscopes.esp=1
UniqueUniques.esp=1
Mosin.esp=1
Mosin Ammo Patch.esp=1
Family Mauser.esp=1
NewCalibers_MNauser.esp=1
P90.esp=1
P90NPC.esp=1
AUG-A1.esp=1
PD_VisualReload.esp=1
CutWeaponModsRestored-GOTY.esp=1
CWMR-GOTY-Patch-AWKCR.esp=1
CWMR-GOTY-Patch-ValdacilsItemSorting-AllDLC.esp=1
WattzLaserGun.esp=1
Mauser.esp=1
ShellRain.esp=1
CorvalhoWidowShotgun.esp=1

ClassicSniper.esp=1
GreaseGunSMG.esp=1
BetterModDescriptionsCWMR.esp=1
ChinaLakeandHolorifle.esp=1

ColtM1911.esp=1
True-Frags_v1-2_LoDmg_NoKnockdown_MidRange_NukaDLC.esp=1


MinigunDamage.esp=1
USP 45.esp=1

mjp_PTRS41ATR.esp=1
Ppsh 41.esp=1
PPsh 41 New Caliber Patch.esp=1
LAER.esp=1
AKM_AKMS.esp=1
AKM_AKMS_NWPatch.esp=1
M14.esp=1
AKSounds.esp=1
BF1 Animations - Hunting Rifle v1.3.esp=1
BF1 Animations - Double Barrel Shotgun v2.3.esp=1
BF1 Animations - Deliverer v1.0.esp=1
AlexMakarovPistol.esp=1
AlexMakPistol_CaliberPatch.esp=1
DD_bleu_Ump_Extreme_Lore_friendly_edition.esp=1
1918bar.esp=1
WM Chinese Assault Rifle - Standalone.esp=1
WMCAK-NC-patch.esp=1
fn five-seven v3.0.esp=1
9x39Project.esp=1
ModularKalash.esp=1
G36Complex.esp=1
M1Garand.esp=1

M1Garand - AWKCR-VIS.esp=1

LugerP08.esp=1
NewCalibers_LugerP08_v307.esp=1
SVT40.esp=1

SVT40-AWKCR-VIS.esp=1
Lever Action Reload Fix.esp=1
NewCalibersValdacilsItemSortingPatch.esp=1
The Eyes Of Beauty.esp=1
AzarPonytailHairstyles.esp=1
PlatinumCurieV2.1.esp=1
Stm_DiamondCityExpansion.esp=1
Immersive Aquaboy - 5 health cakes.esp=1

Better_Notes.esp=1
Publick Occurrences Expanded.esp=1
Better_Notes VIS.esp=1

WaterPurificationProject.esp=1
WPP Wasteland Workshop Patch.esp=1
ImmersiveLoversEmbrace.esp=1
UncappedSettlementSurplus.esp=1
TrueReporter.esp=1
Grounded.esp=1
Scrap Everything - Ultimate Edition.esp=1
TheKite_MilitiaWoman.esp=1
NoSneakAttackDamage.esp=1
NewCalibers_LeverActionReload.esp=1
Companion Fall Damage Immunity.esp=1
DV-Armored Pilots.esp=1
DV-Deadly Vertibirds.esp=1

BetterSettlers.esp=1

BetterSettlersNoLollygagging.esp=1
IcebreakerCDO-Settlements.esp=1
SettlementAttacksBeyond.esp=1
FN P90 - 5.7mm Ammo Patch.esp=1
MiniNukeIgnoreLoS.esp=1
StG44.esp=1
BetterJunkFences.esp=1
Tactical Thinking.esp=1
Realistic_conversations.esp=1

NewCalibers_C96v306.esp=1
NewCalibers_M1Garand_asxas.esp=1
SalvageBeacons.esp=1
NewCalibers_9x39Project_v307.esp=1

SettlementPrivacy.esp=1
M1 Carbine.esp=1
NewCalibers_M1Carbinev306.esp=1
NewCalibers_ClassicSniperv306.esp=1
NewCalibers_GreaseGun_v307.esp=1
NewCalibers_1918v306.esp=1


M60.esp=1
Institute Patch for PRC.esp=1
PRC Patch for Enbs.esp=1
NAC-AE Patch.esp=1
NAC-FarHarbor.esp=1
NAC-NukaWorld.esp=1
NewCalibers_SVT40_v306.esp=1
redalertteslariflesounds.esp=1
Immersive_Molotovs_Flamer_Ruddy88ExtendedESP.esp=1
Eli_NukaStuff.esp=1
eli_nukastuff VIS.esp=1
Immersive Aquaboy.esp=1
ButtonsCompanion.esp=1
LeeEnfieldNo4MkI.esp=1
LeeEnfieldNo4MkI - VIS&AWKCR.esp=1
LeeEnfieldNo4MkI - New Calibers .303.esp=1
MP40.esp=1
NewCalibers_MP40.esp=1
F4NVServiceRifleRedux.esp=1
NewCalibers_DPServiceRifle.esp=1
3dscopes-m14addon.esp=1
3dscopes-UMPaddon.esp=1
3dscopes-uspaddon.esp=1

3dscopes-classicsniperaddon.esp=1
3dscopes-AddToSpawnList.esp=1
3dscopes-wattzaddon.esp=1
SprintStutterRemover5Percent.esp=1
SprintersArmorTweakForStutterRemover.esp=1
No More Fucking Birds.esp=1
RichMerchants.esp=1
Volkssturmgewehr.esp=1
AK74M.esp=1
NewCalibers_AK74M_FX0x01_v307.esp=1

 

[woodfuzzy]

Huummm...
Load order is a mess.
It should start out...

Spoiler

Fallout4.esm=1
DLCRobot.esm=1
DLCworkshop01.esm=1
DLCCoast.esm=1
DLCworkshop02.esm=1
DLCworkshop03.esm=1
DLCNukaWorld.esm=1
Unofficial Fallout 4 Patch.esp=1
HUDFramework.esm=1
SimSettlements.esm=1
-----rest of mods

and dead last (always dead last)

Spoiler

Scrap Everything - Ultimate Edition.esp=1

Also, if you're running the ini tweak bUseCombinedObjects=0
change it back to bUseCombinedObjects=1
That causes a large performance loss.. which you're suffering from.
You might want to disable no more fucking birds, as it *might* conflict with the recreational plots. (not real sure)
Next check out the Improving Performance page on the WiKi.
Also grab Fallrim Tools and check your save for unattached instances, active scripts and suspended stacks.

 

[VersusXV]

RAM is 16GB.

16GB is great but I also would like to ask what model of CPU as well as that can have relevance too. RAM could be bottlenecking due to speed but if it's DDR4 from what I've always heard basically any of the speed options will be enough. DDR3 at below 1000mhz effective speed may be a bottleneck, however that's only something that likely applies to pretty old models.

GPU is GTX 960

About the GTX 960 there is a key distinction to ask clarification about: Is this the 2GB VRAM model or the 4GB model? With the 4GB model you'll still have to be careful as the game most often can end up needing more than that. My observations suggest a typical usage of 4 to 6GB on an unchecked, heavily modded game. 4GB is fine unless the player gets carried away with installing too many/ultra quality mods. You might need to dial back on installed mods as once things surpass the VRAM capacity the performance will significantly decrease, if many textures are 4096x4096 it will fill up VRAM. If any ultra quality texture overhauls are installed I advise removing them. How large is the Textures folder inside your Fallout 4/Data folder?

With 2GB model that is minimum spec territory so getting things to run well might be difficult. You will want a very careful & minimalist load order.

The following texture overhaul will reduce texture visual quality somewhat but significantly boost performance, it's much better to be able to run the game well IMO. It may allow for 60fps gameplay & fewer crashes. If you have 2GB VRAM, Potato is probably the best one as it's ideal for at or below minimum spec. If you have 960 4GB you could select Performance or Potato.

PhyOp - Overhauled Optimized Textures
https://www.nexusmods.com/fallout4/mods/27038


Use these 2 tools to adjust things more easily(compared to just editing the INI files) to improve performance:
Fallout 4 Configuration Tool
https://www.nexusmods.com/fallout4/mods/102/
BethINI
https://www.nexusmods.com/fallout4/mods/67

I'll try to provide a little info below. Though I currently cannot play the game due to PC in for repairs so I am going off what I know offhand & the reference guides I use though they're tuned for mid to high spec PCs.

Fallout 4 Configuration Tool is a little more straightforwards but BethINI is more comprehensive.

Spoiler

To start out I'd open Fallout4Launcher & hit Low or Medium Preset if not already done so. Then I'd uncheck boxes at the bottom, set Decals to None, AO to Off since I think it always is set to SSAO even on Low preset. I'd go in other tab and turn down draw distance on everything.

I copied some excerpts from BRB modlist instructions, but tried to edit for lower end PC.
To go really in depth here is the full guide, keep in mind though that it is for medium specs like GTX 980 or high specs.
https://www.nexusmods.com/fallout4/mods/23556

Tweaks Tab
Tweaks: Select Invalidate Archives, Fix Sensitivity Ratio and AutoExecute options. Then select the newly appeared option "Add…". In the opened window copy and paste the following lines:

gr quality 0
gr off
setgs iRemoveExcessDeadComplexCount 50
setgs iRemoveExcessDeadCount 50
setgs iRemoveExcessDeadComplexTotalActorCount 65
setgs iRemoveExcessDeadTotalActorCount 50
thighprocess on

Optionally there's stuff for multithreaded support but by default in the game they're left off. I think I use them but I am on high end system with i7, you could try it if nothing else works. I didn't place it there because I can't confirm if it will help or not on a low end system, given the GPU model I anticipate the CPU might be i3 or AMD FX. On a low end CPU I suspect it may reduce performance so I omitted it from here.
https://forums.nexusmods.com/index.php?/topic/3405345-multithreaded-console-commands/


Performance Tab: iNumHWThreads= 4 if you have 4 or more cpu cores. Select High Priority and Unselect Radial Blur.
UI Tab: Select Disable FX and then your colour preferences. (This gets rid of the scanline effect, boosting performance a little)

I remember that you can also actually disable all shadows if needed, there is an option for that in Fallout 4 Configuration Tool.

BethINI I've not used quite as much, as a last step I'd go through and view tooltips to see what each thing does & adjust in favor of performance.

Also, if you're running the ini tweak bUseCombinedObjects=0
change it back to bUseCombinedObjects=1

This step is an absolute must. Even my high end system will struggle immensely should I disable Combined Objects globally via this setting as 0. It is a complex optimization system used by the game and is totally necessary, as even the best PCs you can buy today will experience disappointing performance without it.

I personally strongly recommend removing this:
Scrap Everything - Ultimate Edition

It will break precombined meshes within the settlement cells, meaning you will experience worse performance while at any of the settlement locations. This is how they allow anything to be scrapped but at heavy performance cost. Reason you can't scrap everything without the mod is because they are part of the precombined mesh. For this reason I do not use & do not recommend any "Scrap Mods"

 

[Ollie]

Thanks for replying, I did what you guys said and Dalton farm built up without trouble, but then I went to Echo lumber mill and the visitor centre, and it still crashes after building. It seem to be alright before I start building, and crashes as soon as the building process is complete.
(Update) Now I went back to an older save and built Dalton farm again, and the crash happened again, right after the building phase.
I think FO4ConfigTool messed up some of my older edits to the ini files, it "highly recommended" me to let it fix my ini files, and promptly set my Y axis speed for the mouse to 0, who knows what else it did.

what model of CPU

Intel i7-7700 @3.6Ghz

Is this the 2GB VRAM model or the 4GB model?

It's the 2GB model...oops.

RAM could be bottlenecking due to speed but if it's DDR4

It is ddr4

How large is the Textures folder inside your Fallout 4/Data folder?

11.4GB

I'm now using the potato texture you mentioned. Frame rate improved a lot, now at 40 fps.

 

[VersusXV]

I'm now using the potato texture you mentioned. Frame rate improved a lot, now at 40 fps.

Nice! Given that it's 2GB model I consider PhyOP potato to probably be pretty much mandatory. Even with the 4GB I'd still consider it a good idea, the 4GB can carefully use higher end stuff but I'd probably only suggest trying if someone really loves to tinker since improving looks while keeping performance is going to involve a lot of trial & error. If you decide to upgrade GPU I suggest GTX 1060 6GB or better as your baseline. GTX 1080 is great. GTX 1070/1070ti are good though with 1070ti it often costs the same as a 1080. Or RTX 2070 though it will have limited availability most likely. RTX 2080 & 2080ti are severely overpriced so I cannot recommend them. RTX 2060 sounds like an interesting option according to rumors though it's not released yet so you might be waiting till next year.

Did you set Low preset & reduce draw distance in the Launcher's graphics settings alternate tab? That may give more frames since AO, AA, the effects checkboxes, decals, are all things that rely on the GPU and we can be pretty certain that the GPU is the bottleneck here.

Definitely install this:

Boston FPS Fix - aka BostonDT PreVis-PreCombine
https://www.nexusmods.com/fallout4/mods/26286​

Doing all of this should improve the stability/performance in settlements as well, since 99% of the time textures simply are sourced from base game textures. Meaning they will use the smaller PhyOP textures. To further help you can try the Performance settings in City Manager Holotape to turn off high detail, FX, visitors, etc. Or on the startup configuration Wizard select Low setting

With some luck perhaps the optimized City Plans may be stable even on leveled up versions. When trying City Plans keep in mind the following:

• Sanctuary is harder to run, it has a lot more stuff. Probably up to double what the smallest RotC City Plans might have. It's probably the #2 most demanding City Plan in the Commonwealth
• Especially be cautious of simultaneously using city plan at Sanctuary, Abernathy & Red Rocket. They call it "triangle of death" because these 3 are close enough that they'll all be loaded in game while you're at any of them.
• Bunker Hill is the most complex/demanding City Plan. Probably up to 3 or 4 times what the smallest RotC City Plans might have. It's like a hub city without load door. There is not an Optimized version for Bunker Hill.
• Far Harbor City Plans are all the most complex/demanding City Plans next to Bunker Hill.

It might be interesting to see how far you can get using that GPU. I am curious if after applying optimization methods from my posts if the more complex ones might be usable.

Intel i7-7700 @3.6Ghz

Same CPU as mine. It's really good though can run really hot, I do suggest monitoring temps to make sure it isn't getting very high. It can handle Lighting on Ultra shadows on High or Ultra though I am not sure if those 2 settings do rely on GPU too. I have it paired with GTX 1080, though I am waiting for replacement PSU & better cooling system.

I think it's pretty ideal since 6/8 cores are not yet mandatory for gaming, and by the time 6 core is mandatory we'll probably have far superior 6 core CPUs by then compared to current 6 core models.

 

[Ollie]

we can be pretty certain that the GPU is the bottleneck here.

There is something I don't understand, I know you are probably right and I should get a new GPU, but since the crash happen almost exclusively after the build phase, and most of the objects have not spawned yet ( structures, animated objects, special FX etc.), and there are only plain foundations in the settlement, are they still the reason for the crashes? The settlements look emptier after the build than before because I had old stuff in it from before the Far Harbour update.

Also, I found out that if I immediately fast travel to some other safe place, during the few seconds after the city finish building and before it crashes, it would still crash at the new location, like it is following me.

Did you set Low preset & reduce draw distance in the Launcher's graphics settings alternate tab?

]
I did.

To further help you can try the Performance settings in City Manager Holotape to turn off high detail, FX, visitors, etc. Or on the startup configuration Wizard select Low setting

I set most of these to low, though I kept some of the less demanding ones like the sound effects, I'll try again with all of them turned off.

Thanks again for spending the time to help me.
P.S. should I upload a save file or something?

 

[VersusXV]

There is something I don't understand, I know you are probably right and I should get a new GPU, but since the crash happen almost exclusively after the build phase, and most of the objects have not spawned yet ( structures, animated objects, special FX etc.), and there are only plain foundations in the settlement, are they still the reason for the crashes? The settlements look emptier after the build than before because I had old stuff in it from before the Far Harbour update.

Also, I found out that if I immediately fast travel to some other safe place, during the few seconds after the city finish building and before it crashes, it would still crash at the new location, like it is following me.

Just is my best guess based on having played Bethesda games on lower end systems in the past. We do not have any ability to have crash logs so cannot know for sure. If the game is struggling to handle the data then I observe that CTDs become far more likely. On my lower end laptops in the past I was able to pretty much determine that having insufficient RAM leads to game data corruption and caused me to get corrupt saves on Fallout 3 & sometimes on TES4 Oblivion. I had a 2GB laptop then a 4GB laptop later on, both with Vista in about 2006-2008. I can't verify but I suspect similar may occur with VRAM. Same situation for my 2011 laptop. I always would CTD within 1 to 2 hours of playing even without any mods. Often it would happen after entering a dungeon, I'd enter an ayleid ruin or a mine then everything is purple because my system couldn't load it, this also rarely happens on PS3. I tried every fix for those but only thing that worked was upgrading. However what is different for my laptops compared to your PC's specs is I was trying to run the game at below minimum specs while your GPU is roughly at minimum specs. After using hacks like no shadows in the game, I was able to beat main quest & guilds in Skyrim though it wasn't good performance at all. 20 fps with less anytime there was combat, would hit 10fps frequently in Bleak Falls Barrow(probably the worst dungeon in the game for low end system). Game can become a little bit more stable if you can reduce the demands placed on the system. And also because there are a lot of utilities like BethINI that you can use for this purpose I think it might be possible to get some adequate performance.

It's simply flaws inherent to the game engine as far as I can tell, there are no fallbacks for if requested game data isn't ready as fast as possible. When resources run out the last line is to right data to page file on HDD, this is far slower than RAM/GPU's VRAM so in terms of gametime it is like it waits a long time. It's like this, if you have very many mods & huge install then load screen can be 10-20 seconds on an SSD. HDD would take 3 minutes on the same load screen because read/write speeds are very low as it isn't needed for daily tasks. RAM Disc would be instantaneous(this is a very extreme usage scenario), read/write speeds are extremely high. I have found overkill specs to be the best way to improve stability, though a RAM Disc setup is well beyond what any normal person could afford as you'd need 64GB if not 128GB as it has to be able to contain everything. Bethesda probably tested in development with either SSD or RAM disc environment with powerful specs. My best conclusion is that game waiting on any data = chance of CTD or corruption. Consoles also experience instability, which I believe to be for this reason. I went for high end PC because Bethesda games & Witcher 3 are my favorite, I increasingly only play these and have low interest in other games.

By build phase I assume you mean the initial foundation level for the city plan? After the build phase once city plan is level 1 there will be quite a few things spawned in & also plots gradually appear as settler count increases. There can be a lot of objects, for instance Sanctuary Level 3 is over 3000 objects I believe & Bunker Hill is considerably more than that. It has to load all of the objects before they can be spawned. There's more to it but this is just a straightforward way of putting it.